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Rob
United States 30° 12′ 38″ N, 95° 45′ 2″ W
Never give credit to conspiracy what can be much better explained as just rampant incompetence.
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Scenario: imagine that a monster is in a square, and it has one character adjacent to it in melee, and all other seven squares around it are clear. Can a second character go all the way around the monster on a route that passes through one or more of those squares (in order to flank), without provoking an opportunity attack? Or must that second character stop at the first square that makes it adjacent to the monster, thereby avoiding an opportunity attack? Assume that the second character has no special movement abilities or conditions (like invisibility). I was re-reading movement rules in the Player's Handbook and it still wasn't clear. Thanks.
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DMSamuel
United States Ithaca New York
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If a character enters the creature's threatening zone and then leaves, it will be subject to an opportunity attack, regardless of what other PCs may already be next to the creature.
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DMSamuel
United States Ithaca New York
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Here is the quote from the compendium on Opportunity Attacks:
4e Compendium wrote: Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.
Here is the quote from the compendium on Opportunity Actions:
4e Compendium wrote: Trigger: Opportunity actions allow you to take an action in response to an enemy letting its guard down. The one type of opportunity action that every combatant can take is an opportunity attack. Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.
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Dave Bernazzani (@rpggeek)
United States Plainville Massachusetts
I wish to provide legendary service to the RPG community to help grow our hobby and enrich the lives of gamers everywhere.
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In this scenario:
If the character in blue (at F4) wants to attack it can move into any one of those 7 marked squares safely. The problem is that if he moves from any one of those 7 marked squares he will provoke an Opportunity Attack from the creature at C3. So if he wanted to flank at D3, he could simply move E3,D3 and safely attack without an OA. If he instead wanted to get to C2 (for whatever reason) he can only do so safely if he stays outside the threat range for the creature - something like F3, E2, D1, C2. If he were to go E3, D2, C2 he would provoke an Opportunity Attack as he leaves the D2 square.
-Dave
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Rob
United States 30° 12′ 38″ N, 95° 45′ 2″ W
Never give credit to conspiracy what can be much better explained as just rampant incompetence.
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Thanks, to clarify my question: if the second character stays in adjacent squares - moving from one to another as he gets to the back of the monster to flank - would he be subject to an opportunity attack? Or, to put it another way, would moving from one adjacent square to get to another one be considered "leaving?"
Edit: the simultaneous posts above clarified this question, thanks!
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Maurice Tousignant
Canada Windsor Ontario
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The only way a character can leave a threatened square without the attack of Op. is shifting. Again disregarding any other things like, teleports, invisibility etc.
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Dave Bernazzani (@rpggeek)
United States Plainville Massachusetts
I wish to provide legendary service to the RPG community to help grow our hobby and enrich the lives of gamers everywhere.
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Sinister Dexter wrote: Thanks, to clarify my question: if the second character stays in adjacent squares - moving from one to another as he gets to the back of the monster to flank - would he be subject to an opportunity attack? Or, to put it another way, would moving from one adjacent square to get to another one be considered "leaving?" Yes - however if your only movement is a single square 'shift', you can do that safely (basically you move only 1 square and keep a guard on yourself as you move ultra-carefully). So by shifting 1 square each turn, you could, eventually, work your way around the enemy. But regular movement would cause an OA each time you leave a threatened square.
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Rob
United States 30° 12′ 38″ N, 95° 45′ 2″ W
Never give credit to conspiracy what can be much better explained as just rampant incompetence.
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Thanks for the clarification. I'll explain this to my players next week. I'm sure the rogue will be bummed to learn that he can't waltz past the ogre for a backstab without getting bashed first.
As a side-note: the other thing I realized re-reading the movement rules: a character can move right thru a monster's space, but will provoke an opportunity attack in doing so (unless the monster is two sizes larger or two sizes smaller than the character). I thought they couldn't pass thru under any normal circumstances.
I'm sure these clarifications will make combat more dynamic.
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DMSamuel
United States Ithaca New York
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Sinister Dexter wrote: Thanks for the clarification. I'll explain this to my players next week. I'm sure the rogue will be bummed to learn that he can't waltz past the ogre for a backstab without getting bashed first.
As a side-note: the other thing I realized re-reading the movement rules: a character can move right thru a monster's space, but will provoke an opportunity attack in doing so (unless the monster is two sizes larger or two sizes smaller than the character). I thought they couldn't pass thru under any normal circumstances.
I'm sure these clarifications will make combat more dynamic.
They can only pass through an ally's square without penalty, as long as they don't stop in an occupied square.
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Dave Bernazzani (@rpggeek)
United States Plainville Massachusetts
I wish to provide legendary service to the RPG community to help grow our hobby and enrich the lives of gamers everywhere.
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lorddillon wrote: They can only pass through an ally's square without penalty, as long as they don't stop in an occupied square. Right, you can pass through an ally's square (but not remain there). You cannot pass through an enemy square.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
United States Mountain View California
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wavemotion wrote: lorddillon wrote: They can only pass through an ally's square without penalty, as long as they don't stop in an occupied square. Right, you can pass through an ally's square (but not remain there). You cannot pass through an enemy square.
Normally. You can pass through the squares of enemies two or more size categories larger or smaller than you, but you provoke opportunity attacks and you can't end your move there unless you're Tiny. (In fact, Tiny creatures must do this to attack you, as they have Reach Zero and can't hit an adjacent square.) Thus, a Small Halfling Rogue could dodge under the legs of the Large Ogre to get to the other side of him in order to flank, and since the Rogue has a bonus against Opportunity Attacks, it's even a reasonable strategy. (See page 205, Occupied Squares, in the Rules Compendium)
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DMSamuel
United States Ithaca New York
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Santiago wrote: wavemotion wrote: lorddillon wrote: They can only pass through an ally's square without penalty, as long as they don't stop in an occupied square. Right, you can pass through an ally's square (but not remain there). You cannot pass through an enemy square. Normally. You can pass through the squares of enemies two or more size categories larger or smaller than you, but you provoke opportunity attacks and you can't end your move there unless you're Tiny. (In fact, Tiny creatures must do this to attack you, as they have Reach Zero and can't hit an adjacent square.) Thus, a Small Halfling Rogue could dodge under the legs of the Large Ogre to get to the other side of him in order to flank, and since the Rogue has a bonus against Opportunity Attacks, it's even a reasonable strategy. (See page 205, Occupied Squares, in the Rules Compendium)
Right - the key to his question and to my answer was the term without penalty. He is really asking for clarification that surrounds the attack of opportunity and how/what movement is allowed that doesn't provoke.
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Rob
United States 30° 12′ 38″ N, 95° 45′ 2″ W
Never give credit to conspiracy what can be much better explained as just rampant incompetence.
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One last clarifying question then: let's say the monster takes its opportunity attack as that characters is trying to move thru its threatening squares. After that immediate reaction, can the character then finish his move action to the extent of his speed? IIRC, a monster or character can only make one opportunity attack per target per round.
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Dave Bernazzani (@rpggeek)
United States Plainville Massachusetts
I wish to provide legendary service to the RPG community to help grow our hobby and enrich the lives of gamers everywhere.
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Sinister Dexter wrote: One last clarifying question then: let's say the monster takes its opportunity attack as that characters is trying to move thru its threatening squares. After that immediate reaction, can the character then finish his move action to the extent of his speed? IIRC, a monster or character can only make one opportunity attack per target per round.
Normally an Opportunity Attack (even if it hits) will not interrupt movement - you can continue your movement as normal.
There are some powers and abilities that do stop movement on a successful hit - but those are exceptions, not the rule. The Fighter has Combat Superiority which would stop movement.
Edit: Was clarified below - you can take an OA on every enemy creature turn Normally characters and creatures only get one OA per round... but there are exceptions there as well (Combat Reflexes, etc).
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
United States Mountain View California
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wavemotion wrote: Sinister Dexter wrote: One last clarifying question then: let's say the monster takes its opportunity attack as that characters is trying to move thru its threatening squares. After that immediate reaction, can the character then finish his move action to the extent of his speed? IIRC, a monster or character can only make one opportunity attack per target per round. Normally an Opportunity Attack (even if it hits) will not interrupt movement - you can continue your movement as normal. There are some powers and abilities that do stop movement on a successful hit - but those are exceptions, not the rule. The Fighter has Combat Superiority which would stop movement. Normally characters and creatures only get one OA per round... but there are exceptions there as well (Combat Reflexes, etc).
Some confusion of terminology there. An Opportunity Attack is not an Immediate Action. It is an Opportunity Action. Each character may make one Opportunity Action per Turn, but only one Immediate Action per Round, and you can't take either during your own Turn. Each character has their own individual Turn. A Round is from the beginning of your Turn to the beginning of your next Turn. So, if a whole mess of monsters try to run past you, each of them acts on their own Turn (even if they're identical monsters), and you can take an Opportunity Attack against each of them as they run past.
(If they really want to get cheesy, then they can Ready actions to run past you on your own turn and avoid all your attacks, but this sort of behavior gets obnoxious very quickly, on both sides of the table. It's why WotC added the rule that by Readying an action that will provoke an Opportunity Attack, you also provoke an Opportunity Attack right away, which stops you from trying it with ranged attacks or running away, but doesn't do anything about running past, since you're out of Opportunity Attack range when you Ready that.)
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Dave Bernazzani (@rpggeek)
United States Plainville Massachusetts
I wish to provide legendary service to the RPG community to help grow our hobby and enrich the lives of gamers everywhere.
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Santiago wrote: Some confusion of terminology there. An Opportunity Attack is not an Immediate Action. It is an Opportunity Action. Each character may make one Opportunity Action per Turn, but only one Immediate Action per Round, and you can't take either during your own Turn. Each character has their own individual Turn. A Round is from the beginning of your Turn to the beginning of your next Turn. So, if a whole mess of monsters try to run past you, each of them acts on their own Turn (even if they're identical monsters), and you can take an Opportunity Attack against each of them as they run past. Thanks for the clarification! I re-read the Rules Compendium and you're quite right. It does mean, however, that we've been playing 4e wrong for years. If we ever play the system again, I'll be sure to correct the misconception!
Dave
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Rob
United States 30° 12′ 38″ N, 95° 45′ 2″ W
Never give credit to conspiracy what can be much better explained as just rampant incompetence.
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Sinister Dexter wrote: As a side-note: the other thing I realized re-reading the movement rules: a character can move right thru a monster's space, but will provoke an opportunity attack in doing so (unless the monster is two sizes larger or two sizes smaller than the character). I thought they couldn't pass thru under any normal circumstances.
Here's the entry from PH 4e pg. 283 that prompted this comment:
Moving through occupied squares:
Enemy: You normally can't move through an enemy's space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy's space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy.
I'm probably mis-reading it, but the second part seems to imply that you can move into an enemy's square, get hit with an opportunity attack as the penalty, then proceed on through. But as I re-read it, it looks like you can move thru a 2x/-2x creature's space, but he gets an OA on you.
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Hans Messersmith
Canada Hamilton Ontario
Freder: It was their hands that built this city of ours, Father. But where do the hands belong in your scheme?
Joh Frederson: In their proper place, the depths.
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Sinister Dexter wrote: Thanks for the clarification. I'll explain this to my players next week. I'm sure the rogue will be bummed to learn that he can't waltz past the ogre for a backstab without getting bashed first.
This is why all those powers that allow you to shift multiple squares are so valuable.
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Ant Brooks
South Africa Madibeng North West
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Sinister Dexter wrote: Here's the entry from PH 4e pg. 283 that prompted this comment:
Moving through occupied squares:
Enemy: You normally can't move through an enemy's space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy's space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy.
I'm probably mis-reading it, but the second part seems to imply that you can move into an enemy's square, get hit with an opportunity attack as the penalty, then proceed on through. But as I re-read it, it looks like you can move thru a 2x/-2x creature's space, but he gets an OA on you. You re-reading is spot on. The PH entry could be more clearly written as:
Enemy: You normally can't move through an enemy's space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. If you can move into a nonhelpless enemy's space because the enemy is two size categories larger or smaller than you, then you provoke an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy.
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DMSamuel
United States Ithaca New York
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One of the problems with 4e's very detailed tactical rule system is that the designers have to be very precise about how they describe things and what words they use. At this they often fail and so ambiguities creep into the rules and those ambiguities depend upon the interpretation of the reader.
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