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Chris Vanderzee
United States
California
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So here is my situation...I have 2 kids (10 and 12) that really like D&D flavored board games and a wife who is a really good sport about playing them. We play Dungeons & Dragons: The Fantasy Adventure Board Game (with expansions), Dungeons & Dragons: Castle Ravenloft Board Game, Dungeons & Dragons: Wrath of Ashardalon Board Game, and Munchkin Quest often. I think my kids would really enjoy getting into a system that has more continuity so they could develop their characters instead of resetting them each "game". I have been leaning toward board games because I don't really have a ton of time to crate adventures, do prep work, or read a 500 page manual. I want something that we can play for an hour or two, put away and then pick up again in a week. I also am looking for pre-generated adventures so I can run the game without a ton of prep. I have been all over the internet and have come down to trying to decide between Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Beginner Box and Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set or diving into the essentials line. I went into my FLGS yesterday leaning toward 4e and spoke with the two owners only to have a rehash of all of the back and forth I see on the internet. It seems like there is no middle ground on this issue. So on to my question. Which one would be a better place to go keeping in mind that I like maps, mini's and I want a more simplified system, pre generated adventures, and I don't really care about the cost. Thanks for any insight.
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Brian Leet
United States
Montpelier
Vermont
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Unfortunately, while your family has familiarity with something closer to the 4E rules set, I think Wizards really botched the beginners set for that. I do like the essentials format, but you'd need to get several sets and probably a D&D Insider subscription for the character builder and access to lots of pre-gen adventures. While you said this isn't about money, I can't really recommend this huge investment when the Pathfinder Boxed Set is such a well produced product that really can be used stand-alone. My personal recommendation today is to go the Pathfinder route.
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DMSamuel
United States
Ithaca
New York
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If your only choices are the 4e D&D starter set and the Pathfinder Beginner box, then I vote for the Pathfinder box. It is a much better investment - it is well done and is a great introduction to the game that can lead to a lot of further adventures. The 4e starter set doesn't take you that far, unfortunately.
In terms of DM prep, I find 4e to be the easiest game to prep for as a DM than any other traditional game I have played (and I have played many). I find pathfinder (and it's ancestor D&D 3.5) very difficult to prep for consistently, but the difference there is probably due more to me having more familiarity and mastery with the 4e system than 3.5/pathfinder.
However, if you are looking for a "simple" RPG with short combats, neither of these games are for you. They both can take a long time to prep, and combats can go slow in pathfinder too, even though 4e does average longer combats and gets lots of complaints about that aspect and pathfinder doesn't.
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Dave C
United States
Oceanside
California
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I've been out of D&D for a long time. I have 2 kids, 6 and 9. We play Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon and Legend of Drizzt.
I've recently purchased the Essentials Compendium and a 4th ed Player's handbook.. I have tons of "old" modules for 1st ed through 3.5..
Here's some thoughts ... Wizards (the makers of D&D) have just announced that they are making a 5th edition due out in 2013... so you investment is soon to be obsolete.
That said, I've played every rendition of D&D .. all have strong points. (Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.5). If your kids already know the D&D combat system then your combats will flow better in D&D 4th edition. In fact, you could convert the module monsters to fit into the board game in run a streamlined version with your board game parts and a dry erase board for new maps/tiles. .. instead of drawing from a stack of tiles you, the DM, would simply know what to put next and if there is a monster on it.
RPG's developed from people just like you wanting more from there tabletop experience. You may have fun morphing your board games into RPGs.
... another thought is to look at games like Rune Bound.. after playing them a bit the idea of an epic story and journey makes more sense and by looking at how the game is structured with the cards you learn how to create adventures that scale up as they go.
I guess everything I'm saying will take more investment from your brain .. but probably not much more time.
The biggest stumbling block in starting to role play is the nagging question in your mind that asks if you are doing it right.
If the players care about their characters and make decisions based on what their characters would do.. then you are doing it right.. all the DM then does is decide what happens based on what the players decided to do... the fewer rules your group needs to do that.. the better. The more argumentative the group.. the more rules you'll need... and RPG rules are free-flowing compared to Board Games... which brings us back to the games you are currently playing.
If you like the way Castle Ravenloft works and nobody argues, then I suggest looking into the campaign rules that folks have posted in BGG to start you on your RPG quest.
... but that's just my two cents... whatever way you choose will be rewarding. Just keep an eye on your players to make sure they are smiling and interested.
RPG often have a lot of prep for the players as well.. and lots of kids don't want to endure that.. and lots of RPGs have limitations on what characters can do .. and lots of kids don't want to be told their character can't do something.. my advice.. let them do it.. fun supersedes rules.. just apply that guideline fairly to all your players.
.. sorry.. I didn't mean to throw a +4 Wall of Text at you.
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Chris Vanderzee
United States
California
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Eat2surf wrote: .. sorry.. I didn't mean to throw a +4 Wall of Text at you.
Ha! Love it. Thanks for the tip about 4e becoming obsolete. I really need to find something before 2013 to scratch my itch. Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) has really peeked my interest. Seems like a good balance between board game and RPG.
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Anthony Friedman
United States
Long Beach
California
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4th edition D&D has free quick-start rules, pre-generated characters, and their first adventure module "Keep on the Shadowfell" available on the Wizards of the Coast website. The characters are at the end of quick-start rules.
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/TryDnD.aspx
This might give you a nice "taste" of whether you'll like 4th edition D&D.
If you want to get physical copies of something, I would suggest getting the Dungeon Master's Kit and either Heroes of the Fallen Lands or Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms.
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The Harnish
Germany
Duisburg
NRW
Cult of The Harnish Leader
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Chrisv5323 wrote: So on to my question. Which one would be a better place to go keeping in mind that I like maps, mini's and I want a more simplified system, pre generated adventures, and I don't really care about the cost. Thanks for any insight.
You can read my reviews (though the in-depth version of the Beginner Box is upcoming): I have played both and the Paizo box is a way better value and introduction to "D&D." The Starter Set is a dead-end game and not even worth your time - you'd be better off with just buying Essentials books if you actually want to play. Based on the criteria quoted above though, the Beginner Box is perfect: it includes a dry-erase flip map (infinitely reuseable), it's simplified version of PF, and there are a million pregenerated adventures for it - I've been running Pathfinder #37: Souls for Smuggler's Shiv for my son (9), a couple of neighborhood kids (9 & 6), and their dad (40). All of them are having a great time.
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Brian Leet
United States
Montpelier
Vermont
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Chrisv5323 wrote: Eat2surf wrote: .. sorry.. I didn't mean to throw a +4 Wall of Text at you. Ha! Love it. Thanks for the tip about 4e becoming obsolete. I really need to find something before 2013 to scratch my itch. Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) has really peeked my interest. Seems like a good balance between board game and RPG.
Descent is a good game, similar to the ones you've been playing and does have a campaign mode. I'm almost embarrassed not to have raised it as a possibility for you. I think it would be a good choice.
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John S
United States
Newtown Square
Pennsylvania
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My first suggestion is Descent (that's a no-brainer). But D&D 4th is a good runner-up. Although I haven't played Pathfinder to know how it compares to other RPGs.
Descent (1st edition) is a longer, more complex game than the D&D board games like Ravenloft/Ashardalon and more similar to D&D in the manner that it is tactical and has a DM/Overlord. It also has an expansion, Road to Legends, that makes it more campaign-like (you take your characters into different games). So that's a no-brainer, since it would build upon what you've played before.
Although it is best to see if the 2nd edition of the game improves upon it. The litte news we've heard is that it reduces it to 2 hours, and I expect it might simplify some rules. No story yet if it will have that campaign mode. I'd certainly check either out. It just seems like the perfect match of taking what your family already knows and turning it into a more complex campaign.
As for D&D, I'm a fan of 4th edition, which I picked up a few years ago. Sure, the edition warriors have their complaints, but it streamlines the DM process nicely so that I can play a campaign without planning for months or referencing tons of books for subtle rule errata. Plus it has enough complexity that it doesn't lose that tactical, crunchy, adventurous flavor. Like it or not, but it is streamlined, sometimes uneven, but likeable. In other words, it is perfect for adults like me that don't have the time to invest in preparing.
The D&D Starter Set was a big miss. But I think the Dungeon Master Kit was a good buy. It comes with the essential's version of the DM Guide, a very good adventure that takes characters from levels 2 through 5, tokens for the adventure, maps, and a DM screen. That's a good buy considering the $30-ish price.
That, dice, plus a Player's Handbook (or one-month subscription to the Wizards web site) is mostly what you would need to play D&D. There's a bunch of free adventures online, such as Keep of the Shadowfell that can take your characters to level 2.
If you do go that route, there is an investment in learning 4E. The DM book mentioned above is a good 300 pages, but maybe only 100 would be useful if you just want to run a scripted campaign. Plus, there's some real learning to do since the game isn't as on-rails as Ravenloft or Descent.
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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I would also recommend waiting for Descent 2nd edition. It has campaign mode and is specifically designed for shorter gaming sessions. Despite a Starter Set, D&D *is* a complicated ruleset, and the Rules Compendium alone is 300+ pages of rules you *need* to know to play the game. The Dungeon Master's guide is 300+ pages of advince you *should* know. (Maybe off on the page counts by a hundred or so pages!)
Anyway, since you have the first two D&D boardgames, you might as well get the third. Legend of Drizzt has the all-important staple goblins which are missing from the first two D&D boardgames. I *think* if you have all three D&D boardgames, you have the miniatures you will need for the Starter Set.
I'd lean towards Keep on the Shadowfell over the D&D Starter Set because you have most of the miniatures, and Keep is a long combat-oriented adventure which your kids should love. You'll want a dry-erase map and the D&D boardgame tiles to create the maps for the adventure. Personally, I find it pretty annoying how the D&D products don't overlap well so you can run a published adventure with D&D miniatures and D&D map game aids.
The Dungeon Master's Kit has an *excellent* adventure. The one in the Monster Vault is *horrid*. You also don't need the Monster Vault because D&D prewritten adventures include monster stats.
EDIT: The Starter Set and DM's Kit adventures come with maps for all / most of the adventure. You should have *plenty* of tiles from the D&D boardgame set.
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Chris Vanderzee
United States
California
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So after much thought...I'm thinking of going for Dungeon Master's Kit, Player Essentials: Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Dungeon (plus maybe a few other sets). Will that be enough to pull off a decent game? The more I think of this the more time I want to put into it...this could end badly....
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Steven Robert
United States
Altadena
California
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Chrisv5323 wrote:
Yes, that's an excellent start! I think you'll want the Monster Vault if you decide to continue, but you don't need it to begin. Also, download the free Shadowfell adventure, just for more options.
Enjoy!
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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You sure you need the Dungeon tiles? The D&D boardgames have *plenty* of dungeon tiles, although the D&D RPG tiles don't interlock. As someone who owns several sets of D&D tiles, I actually find the different sizes to be *really* annoying.
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Chris Vanderzee
United States
California
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Need....not sure. Want....oh hell yes!
Interesting that they are not standard sizes. I'll have to think a little more on that one.
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Steven Robert
United States
Altadena
California
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Chrisv5323 wrote: Need....not sure. Want....oh hell yes!
Interesting that they are not standard sizes. I'll have to think a little more on that one.
Well, they are standard sizes - there are just many different sizes (unlike the single size for the boardgames). There are big rooms, small rooms, corridors, small tiles with features, etc. It can be a pain to find the one you want, but if you start with the master set and its handy box, I think it'll work well.
Personally I think they are much more useful than the Castle Ravenloft ones. (And I play Pathfinder, not D&D.)
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Maurice Tousignant
Canada
Windsor
Ontario
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I would suggest a copy of the Rules Compendium.
The Monster Vault at some point would be a good next step.
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Anthony Friedman
United States
Long Beach
California
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GilvanBlight wrote: I would suggest a copy of the Rules Compendium. The Monster Vault at some point would be a good next step.
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John S
United States
Newtown Square
Pennsylvania
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1) You'll also need dice. You can get them at any hobby store.
2) You'll also need a 1st level adventure. The "Reavers of Harkenwold" adventure in the DM Kit is excellent, but it starts at level 2 and goes to 5. It also is more open at times (more role-playing, and going here and there to do objectives before storming the castle).
So rather than just starting there, you want a nice dungeon crawl that will focus the group and teach them to roleplay, learn combat, and help each other. Harkenwold is great because it is challenging (think of it like an interactive "Two Towers" in story and plot -- you gain alliances, talk to a bunch of people, then battle at a castle at the end). But you really want a focused dungeon crawl for absolute beginners. It is also easier to DM a dungeon crawl -- less roleplaying, so you can all get combat down pat before going onto advanced stuff.
It may be blasphemy, but in some ways, I like the idea of getting the Red Box Starter Set just to 1) get free dice 2) start small, and 3) get a cheap 1st level adventure and see if you like D&D at all. Later you have the maps, tokens, and dice to use elsewhere for your campaigns. But that's just an idea to get dice and an easy starter level. But I go back and forth on getting that -- maybe it's not a good idea at all! But you'll need dice.
Alternately, as mentioned before, you can just download the free "Keep of the Shadowfell" adventure from WOTC, or use any first level adventure on the net. "Kobold Hall" was from the Dungeon Master Guide and that was a nice on-rails crawl that I used.
As for the Dungeon Tiles, The Harkenwold adventure has most of the maps except maybe a few small ones that you can draw on paper. But if you didn't want to get tiles yet, you can even skip those battles or re-use a map they've already done. Although those Tiles will be great for any game. So it's a good purchase. But maybe see if you like the game first.
The Rules Compendium, mentioned later, is well made. The only problem I have is that the DM Kit repeats a lot of that. So I'd get one or the other. Although the Rules Comp. is a bit easier to reference, since it has more player info. It's what I bring to the table. Maybe see how the DM Kit book goes and then later see if you want this other book? Or borrow it and see if you like it? I'm all for starting off small and then building on later.
Of course, this entire RPG path is if you are ambitious and want to invest the time in D&D. RPG-ing is tons of fun and can adapt to players the way a board game cannot. But it takes time to learn the system.
Sometimes you just want a board game to jump into and be on rails, and Descent will scratch that itch. Descent 2 may even improve on that. But 4E (or any other RPG like Pathfinder) has a fairly cheap intro price of $60-ish or so for getting basic books and equipment. So it's not a bad deal to just to dip your feet in it and see what it is about. The books are all ebay-able after if you don't want them (at least for a year or so I bet until 5E comes out).
And to speed up time learning D&D basics, check and see if there are some Youtube videos to teach basic mechanics. Or better yet, go to one of the Wednesday "D&D Encounters" sessions at your local FLGS to play or just watch D&D for a couple hours. After seeing that you'll catch on quickly. I have to say that 4E D&D was easy for me to pick up because I knew how 1st edition worked. But I bet an "all new" player might need some sort of reference to get up to speed. It's not hard, but can seem complex with dice rolls, making up stories, maps etc if you don't have a previous framework. But I'm more of a visual learner, so I like to have a concept rather than reading strictly through textbook. Although Ravenloft has many of the same mechanics, so maybe you'll get the gist.
Good luck, whichever path you choose.
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S Troxler
United States
Clover
South Carolina
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Throwing another thought out... The Slaying Stone is a nice 1st level adventure, and it includes a poster map. I personally started with the starter set. In hindsight I wish I had known about The Slaying Stone adventure.
The dungeon tiles are up to someone's preference. Personally I fall into the dungeon tile junkie category.
The Rules Compendium mentioned previously is a very useful resource. Yes much of it is repeated from the DM Kit Book, and the Hero's books, but having everything in the single book makes it much easier to look things up. Also from my experience with it, many times when I was reading something and had a question, looking through the "Index" would generally point you to an answer.
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Dave C
United States
Oceanside
California
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I have the Essentials Compendium book.. it's my "go to" book for bathroom reading. It's got everything you need to run a game.. just none of the numbers to build characters... if someone is an experienced DM but new to 4th Edition I'd say this would be the first step... but new DMs will want advice on how to be the DM .. and I'm betting the DM Kit has that in it.
Actually.. if I had to do it again I'd buy the compendium an download the Quick Start.
As to tiles... a blank piece of paper and a pencil.. sketch out your map.. a square is an inch.. use a tape measure to move and your kids will learn about measurements.
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Chris Vanderzee
United States
California
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Thank you everybody for all of the input. I now have a plan and will let you know how it goes. Hopefully my kids will be as into D&D as I was at their age.
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