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Erik Mallinson
United States
Winchester
Massachusetts
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I was disappointed in the introduction to this adventure and the players were too.¹ Based on the nostalgic posts on B2 - and D&D in general - we expected more excitement from the start. Entering The Keep on the Borderlands there were several misfires. My son kept trying to cause trouble for the peaceful townsfolk while my wife stood there kind of lost, expecting concrete choices about what she could do. I struggled to describe the area and ended up placing emphasis on the trivial by not describing the important. Rookie DM mistakes, I admit. But I had my doubts about B2 when I read it, doubts confirmed in our session - it’s a dull beginning to what could be great material.
The players are expected² to gain entry to a castle, then likely buy supplies, hire retainers, talk to someone who plants the idea to explore the Caves of Chaos³, probably sleep at this point, and then head off to into the surrounding lands in hope of finding the Caves. The opening is dry, long, and too serious to be fun for new players. How many compelling stories start with a long exposition? Perhaps expectations were different 30 years ago - in the years since B2 was written we’ve had gifted story-tellers like Steven Moffat and Joss Whedon writing irresistible hooks that come before the opening credits even roll.⁴
If I were to do it again I’d incorporate a quick teaser into the start of the story - a pickpocket grabs a players belongings, a skirmish involving bandits, or an evil acolyte dropping an important clue that makes no sense to the new players. Action placing the players in a loose narrative - still able to do whatever they want but with a sense that something important is happening that they just walked into. It took too long for my players to taste action.⁵
That I had to think about this retrospectively is the problem. You only get one shot at a first impression and Gygax should have paid more attention to this when writing an adventure to introduce the game to DM’s and players alike.
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1. This is my first time playing D&D as well as my first time DM’ing. I’ve lightly played many other RPGs, read many RPG books, and I’ve owned this and the Basic rulebook since my cousin found them in his attic and gifted them to me in the late 80’s. I’ve read B2 a few times over the years. I talked my wife and teenage son into playing. She is a elf, he a dwarf. They wanted to focus on just one character (or not get any more 'skin in the game' perhaps) so they ended up with a huge party of NPC characters. Perhaps as retribution for spending my Saturday morning making more characters I decided that one or more of them is working for someone else and will undermine the group. Shh!
2. To this the adventure leaves no choice. Gygax drops the players off at the front door of the Keep.
3. Or gives them a different mission, though clearly the Caves are the focal point for action.
4. Sure, they’re both television writers, but gifted storytellers nonetheless.
5. Isn’t D&D basically built to handle the episodic story arc format that is so well executed in Doctor Who and Buffy The Vampire Slayer?
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SJ Benoist
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
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D&D was not supposed to be a non-stop action game. It also was not trying to emulate TV shows and it is not built to be episodic, it was trying to emulate the fantasy novels written before it.
It is much more a game of planning, counting your torches, checking every 10' for traps, deciding what treasure to leave because your encumbrance is too high, and trying to solve puzzles that your party may or may not EVER figure out.
You are going to be really unhappy when fighting breaks out and one of your players loses a character to a single damage roll, or dies opening a door  If they pick the wrong cave to start, they will be slaughtered wholesale (the Ogre, for example).
There are many games that emulate TV shows (and Whedon in particular) far better than D&D ever will. They are not really my thing, but I bet some other posters could help point you in the right direction.
Lastly, a few of things you mention are actually issues for you or your players (not the game). Nothing is going to stop your son from attacking townsfolk, for example.
Generally, it is the person running the games job to create a reason for the players to be there and do what is supposed to be done.
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David Cinotti
United States
Bronx
New York
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Many of the early D&D modules benefit greatly from a little extra DM tinkering.
"5. Isn’t D&D basically built to handle the episodic story arc format that is so well executed in Doctor Who and Buffy The Vampire Slayer?"
Absolutely! I approach our weekly sessions like they are an old movie serial. Helps to keep me in a frame of mind that benefits an ongoing story. The addition of recurring NPC's, good villains and a basic framework for a story arc help immensely IMO. It gets tiresome to have PC's just go from town to town looking for gold after awhile.
Best of luck in your adventures and most of all, have fun!
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Erik Mallinson
United States
Winchester
Massachusetts
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SJBenoist wrote: D&D was not supposed to be a non-stop action game. It also was not trying to emulate TV shows and it is not built to be episodic, it was trying to emulate the fantasy novels written before it.
It’s not that I expected non-stop action but starting out with a little action would have pulled them into the game more. B2 as it is would do well as a "Chapter 2" - after a short run-in to grab player attention.
SJBenoist wrote:
… Lastly, a few of things you mention are actually issues for you or your players (not the game). Nothing is going to stop your son from attacking townsfolk, for example.
Generally, it is the person running the games job to create a reason for the players to be there and do what is supposed to be done.
It took some time and effort to get D&D on the table as it was and in the first interaction he had he decided to attack the Keep guards (and everyone watching) for no reason. Afterwards he did explore and cause more trouble and I should have rolled with it. I think if there were more players at the table the group would have helped snub the crazy behavior. It’s tough to be neutral and do that.
Somehow he ended up shaving his beard in all of that, so he’s now known as Jurgen the Cleanshaven. We joked that when he retires he should start a soap company.
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Erik Mallinson
United States
Winchester
Massachusetts
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RexDart817 wrote: Many of the early D&D modules benefit greatly from a little extra DM tinkering.
My gut feeling was that I should have tinkered with the introduction. Given the audience I think that Gygax should have come in with a more whizbang intro, thus far I have no complaints otherwise, though based on the chapters of Master of The Game I think he takes life D&D a little too seriously sometimes.
They are already committed to another night or two spent playing D&D and I'm taking our collective reactions to the first night to massively tweak things so that we can have fun. It was almost there, but elusive in the end and I think we all felt it!
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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I think BGG *DOES* have a serious case of nostalgia for Basic D&D. Really, as power-hungry adolescents "we didn't know any better then" and sophisticated storytelling (anything beyond "let me tell you about my character") wasn't supported by D&D until much later. D&D was derived from a wargame, and, in early editions, it shows.
You could pick up the D&D Starter Set, but I think you should either make up your own adventure for the group (most GMs did this, even in the early days of D&D) or find a better RPG that suits two players who don't do the traditional "hack and slash" RPG game.
And, IMO, Gygax did fine. Most gamers then didn't care about storytelling. They knew they were there to protect the townsfolk, not hurt them. They knew they were there to find the bad guys and kill them. So long as they leveled up and rolled high on the random miscellaneous magic item tables!
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wayne r
United States
Pennsylvania
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I always remembered B2 as a sandbox type gameplay. It was up to the DM to fill in the details. I just remember exploring the rooms/buildings a lot and fighting the encounters.
They did a return to the keep on the borderlands so maybe that has a bit more story to it.
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Peter
United States
Carol Stream
Illinois
See I told You
You'll Get Over It
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In reading your initial post I can certainly understand your temperament towards the B2 adventure. Yes there is a lot of nostalgia towards quite a few of these older adventure modules but that enthusiasm has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Being objective I’d probably say that many of the older Basic and Advanced 1st Ed adventures, which I cherish today, would come across as poorly designed or even bad if I experienced them for the first time now with my level of experience in RPGs.
The fact is when considering these early adventures you have to also consider how they were formed. Back then, as SJBenoist mentioned, a continuing plot was not the real goal with these. That formed organically later as D&D caught on and other RPGs were developed. In reality, when D&D first started, designers believed players were mainly just looking for a way to experience something akin to the adventures read about in fantasy novels WITHOUT the story. Designers believed people wanted to gear up, begin killing and collect treasure. Advancing a “character” was a cool way to achieve something out of the game. The old adventures were written to accommodate this. Some had very little to no background information as to a story other than, “The adventurers have arrived to explore the old dungeon in hopes of gaining glory and riches.” The B series was an early attempt to take D&D out of the “dungeon crawl” and expose it to the light of day, at least partially. The addition of even this little bit of background and setting was a huge hit with players. Hence the reason later adventures were written with larger plots and continuing stories over multiple adventure modules.
Today RPGs have come a long way and story is a much bigger part of a large percentage of them. Adventure design too has grown and matured. So comparing them to older adventures is a bit apples to oranges.
The reality is, as a GM, if you want these older modules to shine story wise you’ll have to create your own story to place inside the framework of the adventure. Instead of taking the introduction at face value, consider it a cast of characters, and a stage set up for a performance. You can then place whatever story you want into the framework allowing a myriad of plot hooks and story ideas.
If you don’t want to create your own story hooks, then you are probably better off sticking to adventures designed in the later part of the 80s and early 90s.
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Merric Blackman
Australia
Waubra
Victoria
Ramping up my reviewing.
Happily playing games for many, many years.
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I just had a look at my review to Keep (the only one on the 'geek), and I was happy to see that I did raise some of the problems the Keep presents the novice DM.
The Keep and the Wilderness are junk for the novice group - really, they need to get to the Caves directly. We struggled for a short time with the Keep section when we first played it, back in 1985, but then had a great time whomping goblins and kobolds in the Caves.
Cheers,
Merric
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Marshall Miller
United States
Medford
Massachusetts
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Sounds like you should do the game backwards. Start just inside the mouth of the cave, explore, then hit the castle...
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Merric Blackman
Australia
Waubra
Victoria
Ramping up my reviewing.
Happily playing games for many, many years.
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Mease19 wrote: Sounds like you should do the game backwards. Start just inside the mouth of the cave, explore, then hit the castle...
Honestly, it'd be the best way to do it. Start "in media res" and then do a flashback to you arriving at the Keep if necessary.
Cheers,
Merric
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DMSamuel
United States
Ithaca
New York
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I agree with pretty much everything that has been said.
I have a pretty strong nostalgia of these old modules, yes, and I try to temper it with more modern sensibilities, but I still think B2 is a great module.
I tend to think of these older modules as an invitation - a setting of the stage, if you will. ALL old modules require a lot of work on the part of the DM. The module is an invitation to read and explore this little bit of thought that contains a few ideas you may choose to place into your game. If the players like more story, then the DM has to supply it while working in the stuff written in the module to set the stage. If the players want a more hack-n-slash game with very little story, then the DM still has to work on it, moving or removing traps, story hooks, and possibly NPCs, in order to make sure the needs/wants of the group match what is presented in the game.
Old modules do have their faults, but so do more modern adventures. In a way, many newer modules are better formatted, with enhanced layouts, and easy to follow stories, but that actually makes them worse in play since it easily leads to railroading (especially for newer DMs) and often I have found that the stories have large holes anyway, or the players take the party in a direction not described in the adventure.
B2 is tough for new players and DMs, but all you have to do is remember the 1st rule of DMing: Change, add, delete, or otherwise fiddle with a published adventure as much as you want or need to in order to play the game you and your players want to play. That goes for any adventure module written by anyone in any decade for any edition of D&D (and for the vast majority of other RPGs as well).
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The Harnish
Germany
Duisburg
NRW
Cult of The Harnish Leader
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The OP should post his thoughts as a review of B2 - I think they'd be valuable to anyone new to the game who decides to use B2. To me B2 has always been pretty "meh" because it's filled with nonsensical ecology and relationships (i.e., the menagerie that lives in the caves) and it presents very little in terms of situation that I can build off. Those same aspects are what some people like though since it's so wide open in terms of exploration and direction it can head: it very much is a sandbox setting that you venture in to explore.
Regarding the OP's desire for an episodic, story-focused type game, I think Dungeon World does a better job of capturing that type of feel - it's emphasis is more on story developments (either moment by moment or overall). It also is more of a "character challenge" rather than a "player challenge" in which the characters solve problems rather than the players playing characters solve them.
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Greylond Aston
United States
Tennessee
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Which version of B2? The original? That was my first experience of D&D back about 30 years ago or so. I loved it and still do. B2 is meant for character interaction first, the RolePlay element to allow the novice player to experiment with the character and get used to various non-combat situations, i.e. dealing with Guards/Authority Figures, dealing with Inn/Bar Keepers, people on the street and other shopkeepers. Then the experience of that first adventure, learning/hearing rumors and clues that lead you to search for your first dungeon and not really knowing what to expect when you get there. It's great at what it does but the one thing NOT to expect is combat from the first moment of play. That's not what B2 is about at first...
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erikmallinson wrote: in the years since B2 was written we’ve had gifted story-tellers like Steven Moffat and Joss Whedon writing irresistible hooks that come before the opening credits even roll.
Keep on the Borderlands had a hook far more irresistible than anything Moffat or Whedon have ever come up with. It might just be the greatest adventure hook of all time.
You even mentioned it yourself:
erikmallinson wrote: She is a elf, he a dwarf.
For so many of us, that hook proved absolutely irresistible. It set countless imaginations rolling, and many haven't stopped since.
It won't work for everyone, of course. For the experienced (as you seem to be) or the jaded, it can fall flat. But for someone who just finished the Hobbit and wishes he could actually visit Middle-earth someday, or who has stared wistfully at her wardrobe wondering why that back panel is just a back panel, it's pure gold.
I've occasionally wondered why Keep on the Borderlands works so well as an introduction to role-playing. As MJ said, the ecology is rather ridiculous, and there are plenty of other things you can justifiably criticize. Yet somehow, it simply works, better than so many other scenarios. It was clearly in the right place at the right time, but there's more there as well. Perhaps it was the degree of freedom: more than in most modules, but not too much either. I don't really know. Maybe nobody does. But there's a reason why this is considered one of the all-time greats that goes beyond mere nostalgia.
Anyway, sorry it didn't work for you. Plenty of other modules in the sea, though.
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J. K.
United States
New Mexico
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I think everyone here has done an admirable job of explaining how and why D&D isn't meeting your expectations. And if you aren't reliving the thrilling days of being in fourth grade and being among the only people you knew who were aware that dice came in shapes besides cubes, I'm not sure why anyone would play it.
What is lacking in the replies, however, is a set of good alternatives for you to try. I'm not sure what your genre requirements are, but there are a lot more games out there that are focused on interesting storytelling, episodic formats, and instant action than old D&D was. Now, except for the first game, none of these will have the level of support that D&D did. However, I find that published adventures are unsatisfying to players and GMs alike anyhow. You may have to do a little more work, but you're going to end up "fudging" prepared modules anyhow - see your experience with B2 above! And you'll end up with a vastly more personalized and interesting game.
First up: D&D Essentials. This "condensed" version of the D&D 4e product line has much more modern sensibilities than old-school D&D does. It is designed to get people playing more quickly and the support materials will be better suited to meet your expectations, I suspect. I have never played it, but after my son expressed interest in my aging 4e core books, sitting unplayed on my shelf, I did some research and got him going with Essentials instead. He has run it and he and his players both enjoyed it. I have looked at his Essentials materials and find them pretty good, though I haven't played D&D since B2 was just a couple of years old.
Next up: Dragon Age. This game is supposed to offer a fairly light rules experience in a well-developed game world (the computer RPGs of the same name are in this world). Again, I haven't played it, but it has goals I would consider aligned with yours.
Next: A game someone has already mentioned, but bears repeating: Dungeon World. For $5.00, even if you don't play it, you owe it to yourself to see what modern games look like. This is the fantasy conversion of Vincent Baker's groundbreaking Apocalypse World. In my opinion, Baker is among the individuals most responsible for driving RPGs forward for the last decade or so. I have played this and own it. It's more than awesome.
Another indie game - this one is going to be more of a stretch: Mouse Guard. Based on the eponymous comics, Mouse Guard is based on the award-winning Burning Wheel system. It is a fantasy game about anthropomorphic animals, like Watership Down or Redwall. Again, I haven't played this one, but I do own BW, and it is a modern and highly respected game with innovative concepts that have informed the way I run everything.
Now, let's step away from fantasy for a minute and focus on the TV aspect of what you're talking about. There are a number of games based on TV shows, but there is one in particular I am dying to get to my table:
Leverage. If you've seen the show, you know it's basically a caper movie every week. A team of best-in-the-world bad guys (hitter, hacker, grifter, thief, and mastermind) go around doing good deeds because it's more fun than being evil. The system in Leverage is finely tuned for instant action, drama, and episodic fun. Go check it right now. I think you can still get the quickstart rules for free.
I run a lot of Buffy. I'm on my...fourth? BtVS game for my group. It was the first game I played that actually did a good job of feeling like a show we loved. Star Trek RPGs, by comparison, never seem to feel like the show. They let you run around in the Trek universe, sure, but they don't have the same emotional satisfaction as the shows. Buffy, on the other hand, nailed that. Buffy is the reason that Leverage is languishing unplayed at my house. If you like the show, it's a great choice.
There's a game who's whole purpose is to let you play great TV, though, and it does a pretty good job of it: Primetime Adventures is built around issues, relationships, and drama, not hit points, gold coins and weapons stats. There's no reason you couldn't come up with a fantasy series to play - just look at how well A Game of Thrones made the transition to TV!
Finally, I have to include my game: It's not on the geek yet because it's almost, but not quite, into Beta. My son is currently using it instead of D&D Essentials to run his fantasy campaign. He likes it, and his players like it. The purpose of my game is to create playable versions of fiction we love - movies, TV, comics, etc.. It's got a simple mechanic but lots of interesting decisions to make. Combat is quick and exciting, designed to provide the kinds of fights we see and read about. If you want to try my game, drop me a geekmail and I'll see if we can work something out.
I'm so glad to see families playing together, my wife and teenage son play with me, and my son runs his own games, too. I would hate for one experience to sour your family on play, which I guess is why I ended up with such a long answer. I hope something here sparks a great game for all of you - best of luck, and don't give up!
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jkottler wrote: It is a fantasy game about anthropomorphic animals, like Watership Down
Counting the minutes before steffan points out that those bunnies ain't anthropomorphic...
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J. K.
United States
New Mexico
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E Decker wrote: jkottler wrote: It is a fantasy game about anthropomorphic animals, like Watership Down Counting the minutes before steffan points out that those bunnies ain't anthropomorphic...
Yes, counting. Like 1, 2, 3, 4, a thousand.
Like the bunnies do in WD.
I'm gonna go with:
- Talking
- Being able to separate the concepts of "self" and "world"
- Having the concept of "number"
is anthropomorphic, even if it's not as extreme as we may have become accustomed to.
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