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It's Official: WotC Announces D&D 5E

Andrew Goenner
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So over the weekend there was talk of an announcement coming from Wizards of the Coast (MANY thanks to
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for bringing this to my attention so I could keep my eyes open). It was said that this would be announced through the NY Times. After much speculation, it appears that many were correct: Wizards has announced it is working on a new edition of D&D.

It also seems that they're going to those they are marketing to for suggestions:


Ethan Gilsdorf, NY Times wrote:

But there might yet be hope for Dungeons & Dragons, known as D&D. On Monday, Wizards of the Coast, the Hasbro subsidiary that owns the game, is expected to announce that a new edition is under development, the first overhaul of the rules since the contentious fourth edition was released in 2008. And Dungeons & Dragons’ designers are also planning to undertake an exceedingly rare effort for the gaming industry over the next few months: asking hundreds of thousands of fans to tell them how exactly they should reboot the franchise.


And if you aren't sure how spot on the NY Times is on the subject, here's a snipped straight from the wizard's mouth:

Mike Mearls wrote:

That is why we are excited to share with you that starting in Spring 2012, we will be taking this process one step further and conducting ongoing open playtests with the gaming community to gather feedback on the new iteration of the game as we develop it. With your feedback and involvement, we can make D&D better than ever. We seek to build a foundation for the long-term health and growth of D&D, one rooted in the vital traits that make D&D unique and special. We want a game that rises above differences of play styles, campaign settings, and editions, one that takes the fundamental essence of D&D and brings it to the forefront of the game. In short, we want a game that is as simple or complex as you please, its action focused on combat, intrigue, and exploration as you desire. We want a game that is unmistakably D&D, but one that can easily become your D&D, the game that you want to run and play.


After so much outcry about 4E stripping the game from its roots (whether accurate or inaccurate), it seems that Wizards is finally going to the source in an attempt to gear the next iteration of this classic series towards those most likely to purchase it: us.

If you'd like to read the whole NY Times article, here it is!

And here is Mike Mearls official announcement from wizards.com. You can read the announcement directly from him as well as sign up for info on playtesting the new edition.
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Andrew Goenner
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Also, I have to say. I know there are a lot of 4E fans out there, but I still found this humorous. I was talking to one of my players about this and he said:

Ben wrote:

I am not going to let myself get hopeful, but maybe 4E will be WotC's Windows Vista.
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:20 pm
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Sérgio Iglésias
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This saddens me as for me 4E is very very good.
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 4:01 pm
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Irxson wrote:
This saddens me as for me 4E is very very good.


Just because the game is scheduled to no longer be in production, it doesn't mean that you can't continue to play it!
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 4:10 pm
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Bazin wrote:
Irxson wrote:
This saddens me as for me 4E is very very good.


Just because the game is scheduled to no longer be in production, it doesn't mean that you can't continue to play it!


Definitely true. There are PLENTY of supplements out that should keep a player occupied indefinitely if they want to stick with 4E.
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 4:12 pm
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Bazin wrote:
Irxson wrote:
This saddens me as for me 4E is very very good.


Just because the game is scheduled to no longer be in production, it doesn't mean that you can't continue to play it!


And this here is the main problem with pushing many editions.

Consider that half of all roleplayers of a certain edition will not transfer to a newer edition. Now, push out a new edition ever 5 to 10 years. If you cannot equal the number of people that left when the previous edition was pushed out, then you are just dwindling the base consumers for each edition. You'll draw less and less income from each edition until it is no long worth the effort to continue the line.

That's my worry at this juncture.
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 5:18 pm
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D&D 3.X = Magic the Gathering D&D
D&D 4 = World of Warcraft D&D
D&D 5 = Web 2.0 D&D
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 6:35 pm
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D&D 4 was definitely WoW plus MtG (collectible Fortune Cards, Power Cards, etc).
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 8:01 pm
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For how long you guys think they are going to support 4e?
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:51 pm
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What's the release date of 5E? There's your answer. I feel sorry for the people who've been waiting for the DDI VTT so they could play 4E online because I doubt it's ever going to be finished now...time to move on to an iOS app and a 5E VTT.

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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:06 pm
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MJ Harnish wrote:
What's the release date of 5E? There's your answer. I feel sorry for the people who've been waiting for the DDI VTT so they could play 4E online because I doubt it's ever going to be finished now...time to move on to an iOS app and a 5E VTT.

The problem here is that you are assuming that the VTT cannot natively support both 4e and 5e (and possibly even older editions of the game). As far as I am aware, this isn't the case.
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:17 pm
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The most fun I've had playing D&D in the last 5 years was playing an old 2nd ed AD&D module at a game con last November.

The big problem with 4E, in my personal opinion, is that they tried to balance the classes and races the way you balance them form MMOs, which is not what you need to do for table top RPGs.

You don't HAVE to make every spec of every possible race/class combo perfectly balanced. You don't HAVE to include rules for Aggro management and Taunts. You don't have to script everything like it's gonna run on a computer because it's not going to, it's gonna run in the brains of a group of people who are, more than likely, friends and playing TOGETHER because that is their social interaction of choice.
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  • Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012 11:03 pm
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Two words: Holy crap!
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:04 am
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So they will have a basic basic version of the game and tons of player option upgrade books in all likelihood that you can pick and choose from.

Or even worse, some digital model for expansion content.

Maybe they should just reprint Moldvay and call it good.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:22 am
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Irxson wrote:
This saddens me as for me 4E is very very good.


Why be saddened? A new edition is a chance to ditch baggage and clean up good ideas. If 5E doesn't do that then 4E is still there. It's win/win.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:07 am
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Stix_Remix wrote:
MJ Harnish wrote:
What's the release date of 5E? There's your answer. I feel sorry for the people who've been waiting for the DDI VTT so they could play 4E online because I doubt it's ever going to be finished now...time to move on to an iOS app and a 5E VTT.

The problem here is that you are assuming that the VTT cannot natively support both 4e and 5e (and possibly even older editions of the game). As far as I am aware, this isn't the case.

So you're suggesting they're going to continue developing all of the 4E tools so that you can integrate monsters from the monster builder, upload characters from the CB, etc. for the old edition? Do you think the various 4E tools are going to continue to be available online (they're now exclusively online tools IIRC) once 5E goes live? That would be interesting and unprecedented, and potentially very costly, but also a step in the right direction for 4E players who feel abandoned.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:18 am
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D&D isn't even dungeons and dragons. It's only the same name and an entire different gamesystem.

That's the problem with these WOTC new versions. Nothing seems to be compatible with what came before. While things from 1E and 2E can be used together without much work, 3E is D20 based and completely different. 4E changed the classes and how they work again, making it as good as impossible to use 3E or older stuff. 5E will probably go further on this.

The clue is: many players play D&D but a lot play a completely different game.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:32 am
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It's obviously right decision. Between cRPG, MMORPG, M:TG, Warhammer Battle and Pathfinder - D&D4 never really delivered what it was hoped to deliver. D&D4 is the first edition of the game that is probably NOT the most popular RPG while being published. It's like China would start loosing in table tennis. They definitely feel the need to get back on the top and to introduce some changes and these changes are to big to fit into 4E.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:13 am
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I think that D&D4 is vastly superior to it's predecessor, and it's my favourite since the original. Still, it's full of design holes. I'd rather have incremental changes (like essentials for instance) forever.
I've got a quite serious collection of Gurps 2 and 3 books; I can still use them more then 20 years after my first purchase *and* benefit from the rules refinements of Gurps 4th edition.

The cool thing with D&D used to be the commonality;D&D was the lingua franca of RPGs, now it just fractions the players, and a fifth edition will further that. D&D is no more different from any other of the hundreds of other games from that PoV, and then I'd rather play a mechanically sound game, for instance a game that does not need erratas, a game that scales properly. Those WoTC diva designers, why can't they do that?

If D&D is to be successful, Wotc must release a simple, good red box that is 100% error free from the start and refine it carefully. From that box you should be able to build and play all the basic, classical starting heroes. Turning stereotypes upside down is good for suplements, not for the core product. But they already botched that.

They should also take care of the terminology they use; on a design document, a fighter can have powers, a thief can be a damage dealer or whatever. In the finished product, a fighter has combat manoeuvers, a mage is not a "controller" and does have spells, a cleric has prayers and a thief backstabs. In a role playing game, words do matter. In fact, nothing matters more than words. It does not take to be a senior game designer to acknowledge that, isn't it?

If one designer can build a RPG all by himself, why the "star" designers of WoTC can't do it properly?
From D&D I expect perfection at what it does, especially if I consider the amount of money supposed to be spent on the game.

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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:29 pm
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Declan Feeney
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As someone who grew up with Red box D&D, played AD&D to death, bought into 2nd and 3rd edition, didn't jump on either the 3.5 or 4e bandwagons I wonder what WotC could do to make 5e something I have to buy. What was it that turned me off 4e?

I think the answer is simple - the game looked combat orientated instead of story orientated, and it looked like a cash-cow with numerous must-buy supplements already lined up to sell. This was made worse by the fact that they didn't actually support any of the supplements - a setting got two rules books and a single adventure. If they'd actually supported things they might have brought me on board with a decent setting - Eberron, Spelljammer or Planescape would all qualify.

Hence what I would want from 5e:
- Base rules which allow people to play with no futher purchases
- Story orientated rules
- One or more core settings which make a degree of sense, are properly supported and allow space for players to set the agenda (ie no-metaplot)
- If they must sell one, a computer based tool set that can be downloaded and only requires a single purchase as opposed to a continuing subscription. I don't mind paying for expansions but once I've paid I expect to have continued use of that software.

My other issue with D&D though is one that shouldn't change. I hate the ubiquity of magic items in D&D - I would really like magic artifacts to be exceedingly rare and mysterious, but if WotC went this path I don't think the game they produced would be D&D. Yes, magic items have become more common, but ever since they first put magic on the Treasure types table magic has been common in D&D. I would like them to tone it back a little. Players should never be complaining about insufficient magic drops - instead they should be awed when magic does appear.
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  • Edited Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:59 pm
  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:58 pm
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The question I have about 5E is if Wizards got to addressing peoples issues in time to slow the Pathfinder train. I know for a lot of people (I personally have just started to look through it), it does D&D better than 4E, and it appears the following is only growing.

I feel that WotC is going to have to pull something majorly impressive for this not to be too little, too late. But, time will tell.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:01 pm
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MJ Harnish wrote:
So you're suggesting they're going to continue developing all of the 4E tools so that you can integrate monsters from the monster builder, upload characters from the CB, etc. for the old edition? Do you think the various 4E tools are going to continue to be available online (they're now exclusively online tools IIRC) once 5E goes live? That would be interesting and unprecedented, and potentially very costly, but also a step in the right direction for 4E players who feel abandoned.


No, I'm not suggesting they are going to continue developing 4e tools, but that doesn't mean they are going to stop hosting them. Your primary assumption is that the virtual tabletop will be game/rules specific, but I don't see why Wizards would do this.

Also, here is a quote from Wizards employee Trevor Kidd.

WotC_Trevor wrote:
Quote:
i would like someone from wizards to tell us as soon as possible what will happen to 4th. specifically will the tools still be up, will it be supported in the mags or on the website at all after 5th comes out
We plan to continue offering people access to tools such as the D&D Character Builder and D&D Monster Builder to support 4th Edition. We are exploring ideas for conversion tools so some of your 4th Edition characters and content will be playable with the next iteration of D&D but it’s too early to say what we will be able to provide.
(bolded for emphasis)
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28830493/L...
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  • Edited Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:09 pm
  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:09 pm
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I never really played AD&D or before, only a smattering of D&D 3.0 and never 4.0, so forgive my ignorance and if this isn't the right venue, feel free to slap me and direct me elsewhere but I've never really encountered a mainstream RPG where the rules promoted story, not conflict. Can someone tell me how earlier editions for D&D did this because my experience with Star Wars (d6, d20, Saga) or Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) never did.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:12 pm
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Declan Feeney
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Its worth noting that during the 3.5 era much of the very best official D&D stuff was already coming out of the Paizo stable within the pages of the magazines Dragon and Dungeon.

I suspect WotC/Hasbro thought that without the 'official D&D' banner Paizo would be unable to find a market, but all they managed to do by cutting Paizo off was to very successfully splinter the market whilst simultaneously turn a close business partner into an untrusting adversary. Given the track record of the two companies that rift wont be healed easily. Paizo have no reason to trust Hasbro who have betrayed them in the past and no financial motive to work with them since they are doing fine on their own.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:18 pm
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JediStitch wrote:
I never really played AD&D or before, only a smattering of D&D 3.0 and never 4.0, so forgive my ignorance and if this isn't the right venue, feel free to slap me and direct me elsewhere but I've never really encountered a mainstream RPG where the rules promoted story, not conflict. Can someone tell me how earlier editions for D&D did this because my experience with Star Wars (d6, d20, Saga) or Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) never did.


Conflict and story aren't mutually exclusive. I don't think that's what people are talking about. I know when I talk about it I'm referring to the fact that 4E is combat centric. Every skill in there talks about how it can be used in combat.

I never played d20 or Saga Star Wars, but I'm running d6 Star Wars with my F2F group and have been playing it for over a decade. d6 Star Wars has PLENTY of non combat-based skills/abilities. Even D&D 3E did. 4E doesn't even disguise the fact that it's going for a "more involved board game combat-based" feel.
 
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:24 pm
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Allow me to play devils advocate here devil ...

Does the presence of non-combat skills indicate the presence of story? I guess I'm still looking for the answer to "AD&D was more story oriented". How?

Because I played many a game of Star Wars d6 that were pretty crunchy and combat-y.

Sorry if I seem dense, I've just never understood that argument.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:48 pm
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Declan Feeney
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JediStitch wrote:
I've never really encountered a mainstream RPG where the rules promoted story, not conflict.

Your first issue here is that you see conflict as the opposite of story - where is conflict is the basis for drama and therefore story.

However if we replace the words 'conflict' with 'tactical combat'...

How about:
- Vampire The Masquerade
- Ars Magica
- Call of Cthulhu
or
- Conspiracy X

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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:38 pm
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JediStitch wrote:
Allow me to play devils advocate here devil ...

Does the presence of non-combat skills indicate the presence of story? I guess I'm still looking for the answer to "AD&D was more story oriented". How?

Because I played many a game of Star Wars d6 that were pretty crunchy and combat-y.

Sorry if I seem dense, I've just never understood that argument.


It can be crunchy and combat-y. Any game can be, if that's what the GM wants to run. What Star Wars and other games do that 4E does not is include skills geared specifically NOT towards combat. Whether is persuasion skills to assist in convincing others, or shiprepairing/modifying skills. I didn't say it indicates the presence of story. It lends more easily to actual storytelling when there are actual mechanics that have nothing to do with combat.
 
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:48 pm
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Not really - my point is that for many people tactical combat is the opposite of story. Combat is merely conflict. How does "My elf rolls a +22 on persuasion. You have to do what I want!" further a story any more than "My fighter rolls a +22 on his battleaxe. I chop you in half to get what I want."

My question originally was "How did earlier editions of D&D promote story?"

I don't mind - really. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just trying to gronk how D&D promoted story "back in the day."
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:51 pm
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"My elf rolls a +22 for persuasion" by itself doesn't tell a story, you're right. That comes back to the "crunchy without story" comment. The point (and now we're getting pretty off-topic for a simple announcement article) is that systems that aren't 4E have specific mechanics for resolving story-related conflict as opposed to combat related. Every skill in 4E is specifically geared for and described in regards to how it assists in a combat encounter. That is the beginning and the end of the point I was trying to make. No more and no less than that.

4E created a rules set for board-based combat and ignored everything outside of that. Games like d6 Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, White Wolf stuff, and even 3-3.5 took into account that more than just people who like board games/hack and slash are going to be playing the game.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:58 pm
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JediStitch wrote:
Allow me to play devils advocate here devil ...

Does the presence of non-combat skills indicate the presence of story? I guess I'm still looking for the answer to "AD&D was more story oriented". How?

Because I played many a game of Star Wars d6 that were pretty crunchy and combat-y.

Sorry if I seem dense, I've just never understood that argument.


The attitude is different. When a GM in 2E let's a bad guy say some final words, that was it. In 3E and later the GM had to follow a lot more rules.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:10 pm
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Fair enough, Andrew - I'll drop the conversation here. You're right, we are pretty far afield. cool
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:16 pm
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JediStitch wrote:
Fair enough, Andrew - I'll drop the conversation here. You're right, we are pretty far afield. cool


If you want to start up a thread somewhere to get this discussion going, I'd be all about participating in it. These are the kinds of debates my group and I have all the time. Just a bit of good-natured argumentative fun!
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  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:25 pm
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JediStitch wrote:
My question originally was "How did earlier editions of D&D promote story?"

Heaps of non-combat spells and monster encounters and magic items. If you played with material spell components, even getting the ingredients to cast a spell was an epic campaign in itself.

Also, adventures that encouraged story and exploration, not just fighting. Assassin's Knot, Isle of Dread, etc.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:05 am
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MasterGeek wrote:
4E created a rules set for board-based combat and ignored everything outside of that. Games like d6 Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, White Wolf stuff, and even 3-3.5 took into account that more than just people who like board games/hack and slash are going to be playing the game.


This is simply untrue. 4E character had just as much, if not more, out of combat ability than any other edition of D&D.

Comparing 4E to something that's not D&D doesn't really serve any purpose because comparatively D&D will always pale in the shadow of skill based games.
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  • Edited Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:32 am
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Rolling20s wrote:
MasterGeek wrote:
4E created a rules set for board-based combat and ignored everything outside of that. Games like d6 Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, White Wolf stuff, and even 3-3.5 took into account that more than just people who like board games/hack and slash are going to be playing the game.


This is simply untrue. 4E character had just as much, if not more, out of combat ability than any other edition of D&D.

Comparing 4E to something that's not D&D doesn't really serve any purpose because comparatively D&D will always pale in the shadow of skill based games.


As I said, if someone wants to start another thread for this debate, feel free, but we've already derailed this enough.
 
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:35 am
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Given the anti-4E vibe on RPGGEEK I think I'll leave it at that. Carry on.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:51 am
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Rolling20s wrote:
Given the anti-4E vibe on RPGGEEK I think I'll leave it at that. Carry on.


Well.. it's just a different game is all. I grew up playing AD&D.. then 2e. 4E is a new beast altogether. It's a totally different game. Pathfinder had to become the spiritual continuation of the original line and that was awesome because it was open source! WotC is jealous now and wants to make some of that 3.5 pathfinder money.. but it's an open source world now and I don't think WotC is going to be able to wrestle the crown out of Pathfinder's hand.

And I think it's a good thing. WotC lost it's claim to the 3.5 crown and I'm cool with that. They have gotten enough of my money over the years.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:27 am
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MasterGeek wrote:
"My elf rolls a +22 for persuasion" by itself doesn't tell a story, you're right. That comes back to the "crunchy without story" comment. The point (and now we're getting pretty off-topic for a simple announcement article) is that systems that aren't 4E have specific mechanics for resolving story-related conflict as opposed to combat related. .


4e does too. It's called a skill challenge.

MasterGeek wrote:
"
Every skill in 4E is specifically geared for and described in regards to how it assists in a combat encounter. That is the beginning and the end of the point I was trying to make. No more and no less than that.


That is just flat out wrong. Have you even read the 4e skills chapter? Diplomacy. History. Bluff. Religion. Streetwise. How do these help in combat? And how are they 'specifically geared for' combat?

Sure, many of the skills have a combat application (monster knowledge checks, stealth to hide and get CA). But the majority of skills and applications of said skills are for non-combat.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:43 am
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Rolling20s wrote:
[q="MasterGeek"]Comparing 4E to something that's not D&D doesn't really serve any purpose because comparatively D&D will always pale in the shadow of skill based games.


4E simply isn't D&D. If you call you cat "dog", it's still only a cat.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:58 am
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I found this image at evil GM's blog, it's cool!
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:38 am
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Boards of Games wrote:


I found this image at evil GM's blog, it's cool!


That, sir, is awesome.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:07 pm
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bigfluffylemon wrote:
MasterGeek wrote:
"My elf rolls a +22 for persuasion" by itself doesn't tell a story, you're right. That comes back to the "crunchy without story" comment. The point (and now we're getting pretty off-topic for a simple announcement article) is that systems that aren't 4E have specific mechanics for resolving story-related conflict as opposed to combat related. .


4e does too. It's called a skill challenge.

MasterGeek wrote:
"
Every skill in 4E is specifically geared for and described in regards to how it assists in a combat encounter. That is the beginning and the end of the point I was trying to make. No more and no less than that.


That is just flat out wrong. Have you even read the 4e skills chapter? Diplomacy. History. Bluff. Religion. Streetwise. How do these help in combat? And how are they 'specifically geared for' combat?

Sure, many of the skills have a combat application (monster knowledge checks, stealth to hide and get CA). But the majority of skills and applications of said skills are for non-combat.


Oh Gods! Not the skill challenge. That flat out turned me off 4e...
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:16 pm
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Boards of Games wrote:


I found this image at evil GM's blog, it's cool!


Someone needs to do a Microbadge for that! whistle
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:18 pm
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I'm a player and DM of 4th edition and I love it. For my players, the combat crunchiness made sense, since they had only known WoW and other video game "RPG"s. The role-playing came later, when it mattered most, and yes, we have an awesome session going, even though the players must all go their separate ways, their stories continue to unfold.

From 5th edition I would like to see how the toolbox develops for DMs. I'm a pretty time-strapped person, so having more tricks up my sleeve would be handy,

More support for one-shot sessions might be great also. I've found that I'm always forgoing character generation to teach people the game basics.

Also I think it would be great if there were various styles of play: pencil & paper, no dice, or small (lite) formats that were compatible with the "mother board" of the edition.

My hope also is that Chris Perkins is intimately involved. I'm a fan of his style of game, his insights into building sessions, and his ability to keep fun at the forefront.

Here's to 5.0. Even though I love my 4th edition, I'm excited that WotC recognizes ways to improve the hobby, and that Hasbro will support it. They can have my money, with how I roll, it only goes towards hours of fun and making great friends.



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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:17 pm
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I never played any RPG before D&D 4E, so I can't talk about any comparisons. What I do know is that I like 4E!

I don't expect the rulebook to tell me how to handle non-combat actions. If I wanted to look in a book to tell me how to do everything, I'd stick with board games. If I want to do something outside of combat, I can usually find a way to tie it in to a skill, and if I can't, I trust that my DM will be able to create a simple resolution from the rules without having to consult a rulebook.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:42 am
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The problem is: this is too soon. Again.

3rd edition had just been released, and then less than three years later they released 3.5.

A mere five years after that, they released 4th edition.

A mere two years after that, they released Essentials, which re-defined the core rules reference and splintered the audience of that edition as much as 3.5 did. Whether and how much this compares to a '4.5' remains debatable. What's not debatable is that it splintered the audience.

And now, a laughable ONE year after that they announce a 5th edition.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't work. It doesn't work because the underlying reason for these re-re-re-editions every 2-3 years now, for this edition overhauls in overdrive, is out of synch with design cycles, and solely dictated by marketing reasons. The latter were specified by former D&D Brand and Sales Manager Ryan Dancey on Enworld. The main reason, in a nutshell, is that around 2005 Hasbro decided that WotC "MtG plus D&D" is a "core brand" which needs to make 50 million and upwards.

At this time, the company decides to make 4th edition. When that flops, not once, but twice (4.0, Essentials), WotC abandons 4E wholesale.

Look guys, all we know is that they WANT to have a 5th edition which meets the sales goal. The only thing we customers know about it is the SALES goal of the edition - WotC wants to have a game that everyone buys. There are NO inherent design reasons to have a 5th edition so soon. And like 4E, which rolled out too soon because of sheer marketing pressure, and suffered for it - skill challenges and monster numbers totally out of whack, the designers had to ignore the entire playtest feedback - WotC once again rushes the next edition to print.

I'm sorry to say it, but I hope they trip up so badly that Hasbro loses interest in the license. I hope a smaller company takes up the brand, takes the time to design the game properly, and then stays faithful to it - and its customers - for at least an 8-year-period.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, indicates that one can reasonably expect WotC's 5E to be anything other than another fire-and-forget series of
non-playtested supplements thrown out left and right at break-neck-speed before the whole pile goes into abandonware. gulp
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:31 pm
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Windjammer wrote:
The problem is: this is too soon. Again.

3rd edition had just been released, and then less than three years later they released 3.5.

A mere five years after that, they released 4th edition.

A mere two years after that, they released Essentials, which re-defined the core rules reference and splintered the audience of that edition as much as 3.5 did. Whether and how much this compares to a '4.5' remains debatable. What's not debatable is that it splintered the audience.

And now, a laughable ONE year after that they announce a 5th edition.


Aside from the factual errors in your anti-Essentials screed, you're missing a major point in your "OMG every 5 years!" rant.

A whole lot of RPGs drop new editions every 5-6 years, historically speaking.

Like HERO. 6 editions in 20 years. That's an average of 4 years per edition. 5e was in 2002, 5.5 was in 2004 and then 6e in 2009.

Shadowrun is 4 editions over 16 years, with gaps of 3, 6 and 7 years.

Rolemaster isn't as bad, 4 editions in 20 years, which is a 7 year average... until you see that 1st ed lasted 4 years, 2nd was 10 years, and 3rd was, again, 4 years.

Vampire the Masquerade ran 3 editions in 8 years. 5 years later it was replaced with nWoD, which you could call a 4th edition. That's an average of 4 years per edition

Tunnels and Trolls went from 1st Edition to 5th in less than 4 years!
It then pretty much disappeared for 25 years... then 7E launched in 2005, and 3 years later... 7.5E

RPGs tend to run on two edition cycles.
"Every 4-8 years"
and "Pretty much NEVER"

I don't have any issues with D&D 5E showing up after a 5-6 year run of 4E. Hell, I expected it when 4E launched.

PS: It's important to note that they have NOT announced a launch date for 5th. The only hard and fast date we've been given in "playtest in 2012". It's not unreasonable to assume 2013, but there's no guarantee.
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  • Posted Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:05 am
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palmerkun wrote:
Aside from the factual errors in your anti-Essentials screed, you're missing a major point in your "OMG every 5 years!" rant.


If you find it factually incorrect that Essentials splintered the 4th edition customer base, go tell Scot Rouse and Ryan Dancey, WotC's two latest brand managers for D&D. They went live this week to say exactly that, on Enworld no less. Between a random poster on the internet like you or myself, and two of D&D's brand managers, you might find opinions vary in authority.

Secondly, taking some of the industry's worst failures like the "World of Darkness" overhaul as a bench mark by which to measure commercial success (not even to mention design success - the ostensible point of my post - because you didn't)?

To each their own, I guess.

Finally, I always find it telling when people resort to abuse to communicate their point ('screed', 'rant').
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  • Edited Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:45 am
  • Posted Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:45 am
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Windjammer wrote:
palmerkun wrote:
Aside from the factual errors in your anti-Essentials screed, you're missing a major point in your "OMG every 5 years!" rant.


If you find it factually incorrect that Essentials splintered the 4th edition customer base, go tell Scot Rouse and Ryan Dancey, WotC's two latest brand managers for D&D. They went live this week to say exactly that, on Enworld no less. Between a random poster on the internet like you or myself, and two of D&D's brand managers, you might find opinions vary in authority.


Scott Rouse hasn't been the brand manager at WotC since October 2009.

Ryan Dancey was the VP of Tabletop RPGs at WotC, not the brand manager, and he left WotC in 2001.

So, to say that they are "two of the latest brand managers for D&D" is a bit disingenuous and a slight misrepresentation..

The point the other poster was making is that it is not altogether odd in the RPG industry for a game to have a short life cycle. It doesn't mean that its right or that the customers like it, just that it isn't uncommon. That was the only point the poster was making, so it was the only point he addressed. His point had nothing to do with the success of a line.

And, frankly, your post did come off as an "anti-Essentials rant" - sorry if that sounds like an attack to you, but that was the tone of your post and I don't feel it's a personal attack to tell you so.
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  • Edited Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:59 pm
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JediStitch wrote:
but I've never really encountered a mainstream RPG where the rules promoted story, not conflict.


GURPS. Combat is lethal.
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  • Posted Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:05 pm
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After only 3 and a half years I have to point at WOTC and quote Nelson Muntz

HA HA
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  • Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 am
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ealdrich wrote:
JediStitch wrote:
but I've never really encountered a mainstream RPG where the rules promoted story, not conflict.


GURPS. Combat is lethal.


Also, see Call of Cthulhu - one of the oldest mainstream RPGs in existence. Combat is deadly, no matter if you go insane or not.
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  • Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:41 pm
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lorddillon wrote:
ealdrich wrote:
JediStitch wrote:
but I've never really encountered a mainstream RPG where the rules promoted story, not conflict.


GURPS. Combat is lethal.


Also, see Call of Cthulhu - one of the oldest mainstream RPGs in existence. Combat is deadly, no matter if you go insane or not.


Indeed! Especially if you don't know what your doing. I had some players try and shoot a Shoggoth with a shotgun once laugh
 
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  • Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:20 pm
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Now if I could only sell my whole 4 collection of books for more than kindling. soblue
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  • Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:12 pm
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johnnyspys wrote:
Now if I could only sell my whole 4 collection of books for more than kindling. soblue
In there in lies WotC's real problem in the immediate future: how badly are the sales of the upcoming 4E products going to decline due to the announcement? It's likely WotC is looking at 1-2 years of very poor D&D sales and falling market share leading up to the release of 5E. I wonder how corporate management will handle that.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:30 am
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MJ Harnish wrote:
johnnyspys wrote:
Now if I could only sell my whole 4 collection of books for more than kindling. soblue
In there in lies WotC's real problem in the immediate future: how badly are the sales of the upcoming 4E products going to decline due to the announcement? It's likely WotC is looking at 1-2 years of very poor D&D sales and falling market share leading up to the release of 5E. I wonder how corporate management will handle that.


Seeing as how a good number of 4e fans aren't looking forward to 5e, I imagine sales will probably not fare as badly. They'll probably be a bit down (especially once playtesting begins). I know a lot of people who are looking forward to all the new 4e products, but will not be spending a dime on 5e.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:02 pm
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MJ Harnish wrote:
In there in lies WotC's real problem in the immediate future: how badly are the sales of the upcoming 4E products going to decline due to the announcement? It's likely WotC is looking at 1-2 years of very poor D&D sales and falling market share leading up to the release of 5E. I wonder how corporate management will handle that.


Actually, now that I think about it a bit more, it will be an interesting predicament once the open playtest starts in spring. Why buy a new products, when you're already playing with a physical product of the new edition? Granted, the playtest might be piecemeal or isolated pieces, but I imagine it's enough to "play" the game.

I mean, who is going to have the time to use new product when they are busy playtesting?
 
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  • Edited Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:02 am
  • Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:01 am
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That was part of what I was getting at. If you take 100% of 4E gamers and decide 80% are going to make the switch to 5E (whether or not that's accurate is irrelevant), then that means it's likely that 80% will want to be part of the playtest. They are also much less likely to buy more 4E products due to not playing the game or not wanting to invest money in a dead system that they're planning on abandoning. So that leaves only ~20% of the potential 4E sales left.

If, on the other hand, only 50% of people want to join the playtest, that's bad news for WotC because it means they've potentially just halved the sales of 5E straight out of the gate. In other words they've split the player base again. Even then, they're talking about moving only half as much 4E material as they would have prior to the announcement.

Even if sales drop by only 20%, that's a pretty huge sales hit from a corporate standpoint.

Worse yet the playtest sign-up numbers are completely meaningless because a large number of people will sign-up but some of those are just curious and have no intention on playing 5E, some will sign-up and never play a single game (a remarkably high % if it's anything like most other volunteer programs), etc. In the end, the playtest numbers are worthless except as a marketing ploy and to look at in retrospect and say "We had x # of people sign up to play test but sold only y[/y] number of copies of the PHB later on which means only [i]z % of people adopted the new edition." I think it will be quite telling on whether or not WotC hypes the number of playtesters enrolled because should the take up be very low (I doubt it will be), then it's a very bad indicator for them of what to expect from sales.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:34 am
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Stefan Koller
Netherlands
Den Haag
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MJ Harnish wrote:
johnnyspys wrote:
Now if I could only sell my whole 4 collection of books for more than kindling. soblue
In there in lies WotC's real problem in the immediate future: how badly are the sales of the upcoming 4E products going to decline due to the announcement? It's likely WotC is looking at 1-2 years of very poor D&D sales and falling market share leading up to the release of 5E. I wonder how corporate management will handle that.


One strategy would be to focus on edition neutral stuff like Dungeon Tiles and minis, and other gimmicks that do not even contain rules material on them like the 'Deck of Many Hands' that came with Gardmore Abbey.

In that vein, look at what it says on the back of the latest Dungeon Tiles Set:

Quote:
For use with these DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ESSENTIALS (TM) products:

Rules Compendium - Dungeon Master's Kit - Monster Vault - D&D Dungeon Tiles Master Set


All usual fare - except for this bit, slightly below:

Quote:
All Dungeon Tiles products are compatible with all editions of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Fantasy Roleplaying Game


That's pointing out the obvious - and I know a good many 3.x or even pre-3E players who've kept buying DTs for years now.

But for WotC to alert buyers of the fact is really going the extra mile to communicate their new message.

The only thing I hope WotC will not do is publish entirely system-neutral supplements as they did in the 3e/4e make-over - Dungeon Survival Guide, and Adventurer's Guide to Eberron - which were less than stellar (if inclined check out the Amazon reviews).
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  • Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:46 am
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Dimitris
Greece
Piraeus - Korydallos
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I have to say it was not hard to predict the success of a company like PAIZO many years before the announcement of D&D 4.0 in the case they produced something not compatible with the OGL/3.5e. I did. They could do it back in the years of the 2nd edition but the 3.5e was in OGL. They were just too arrogant to accept it or too optimistic that they could bring thousands of new players.

In my opinion RPG looks like a niche market of a difficult game run by semi-professionals DMs. I don't think they will ever have the great success they dream coming from hordes of new players buying the D&D because they saw it in a store and they heard something about it. The "basic game" products, the miniatures game products, the one-evening-sessions help to introduce the game to new people but there is a certain limit to their efficiency. The existing player base is the way to introduce any new edition. So, they have to be careful with the existing groups. It's not only the cost of new books. It's that the players have spent hours of study to grasp the material, change the material to their style of play, add custom rules etc. I understand they prefer to sell books with feats and powers to every player every month but in the success of PAIZO I saw that there was a small (maybe for the numbers of HASBRO) audience who will buy 1 rule book each year but 24 books of fantasy setting material, campaigns and stories. I don't think we need more than a set of basic rules for D&D-like worlds. In my opinion the OGL is the key. I am not going to accept anything that is not based and it is not compatible with the OGL. Not because is the perfect set of rules but because I don't accept any company to have the right to shut down a set of rules.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:52 am
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Bryce Lynch
United States
Indianapolis
Indiana
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DDXP 5E Seminare Tweets: http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23ddxp

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  • Posted Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:53 pm
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