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A Gnome's Ponderings

I'm a gamer. I love me some games and I like to ramble about games and gaming. So, more than anything else, this blog is a place for me to keep track of my ramblings. If anyone finds this helpful or even (good heavens) insightful, so much the better.
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Another look at anti-social behavior

Lowell Kempf
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Before I became a board gamer, I spent more than a decade as an RPG-only kind of guy. While Dungeons and Dragons was my game of choice (and, when it comes to RPGs, still is. Guess I’m a vanilla kind of guy when it comes to role playing games), I tried out a number of RPGs over the years. Conventions back in those days, in particular, were a chance to try out new systems.

When I started playing board games, particularly at conventions, I noticed something. The strangers who I was playing with tended to be a lot nicer. Either people who play role playing games just tend to be jerks (term edited for family audience) or there is just something about board gaming that allows people to be more polite.

In the end, I think that the social chemistry of board games as opposed to role playing games creates a very different atmosphere and sense of expectations.

What is one of the factors that makes a difference? Overt competition.

In theory, a role playing game is a cooperative form of play, with everyone working together. While a catch phrase in multiple groups I have been in has been “There is no winning in D&D”, in most RPGs, a group stands or falls together. There are tons of exceptions to that rule (Hi, Paranoia) but it is a good baseline.

However, human beings tend to be competitive and gamers even more so. So you get covert competition. That can take the form of showboating, condescending, ostracizing, and even bullying. For whatever reason, I have found that these tendencies get even worse with strangers, making conventions often a fertile ground for this kind of behavior.

I have also seen the universal rebuttal to accusations is “That’s what my character would do. I’m just playing my character.” I find that an invalid and passive aggressive response. When the point of the game is to sit at a table and play with the other people at the table, intentionally making that difficult is just being a jerk. If you chose to play a character whose behavior upsets other players, then you are being a jerk. (On the other hand, if everyone likes having your sociopathic murderer around, then you are playing with the other players and are just fine)

The social contract of board games is different. We are here to pound each other to the ground. It’s not hidden behind passive aggressive denial. Nope, there’s only going to be one winner and you are going to your best to make sure that you are that winner.

You would think that would lead to nastier behavior. And, on the board, it does, sure. However, I have found that people tend to be a lot nicer and more cordial while they are just to cave your skull in on the board. Nobody is trying to fool anyone that they aren’t competing. So it clears the air and we can have a good time trying to make sure everyone else loses.

Indeed, probably the most anti-social behavior I have seen has been playing Settlers of Catan. I suppose that it because you have to cooperate long enough to actually trade with each other before you try to break one another. On the other hand, the calamities in Advanced Civilization give you a way to hurt each other while trading so it tends to be a more congenial affair. You politely trade while crushing each other empires into the dust of history.

I am not saying that I have never seen bad behavior at a board game table. Oh, believe me, I have. I have played with people that have made the game a miserable experience. A bad Settlers of the Stone Age experience has made me avoid that game for years, despite the fact that I intellectually like how it uses the Catan system. And if I was constantly dealing with passive aggressive bullies at RPG tables, I’d have given up playing them long ago.

However, I do think that the two very different styles of play can lead to very different competitive behavior and I have found that I prefer to above board aggression of board games.
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Subscribe sub options Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:25 pm
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Rob Rob
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A bad group can ruin a good game and a good group can save a bad game.
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  • Edited Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:30 pm
  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:30 pm
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Reminds me of a short comedic piece about a French D&D group. I'm sure you've seen it.

Part 1
Part 2

The ending is particularly hilarious. It's worth a watch entirely.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:47 pm
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Star Fix
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Your premise seems solid and I would like to agree with it. I wish that there was a way to explain the behavior of people with anti-social behavior. Overt versus covert games. RPG's attracting less mature players while board games attract more mature players. RPG's having a built in mechanic (roleplaying) which allows and maybe even encourages anti-social behavior. But those are all excuses. Here's the simple truth, and there's no getting around this. Some people are jerks, and they're going to be jerks regardless of their hobbies.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:52 pm
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Patrick Carroll
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I wonder if cooperative games like Pandemic have the same problem you describe for RPGs.

Of course, serious chess players are known to sometimes be antisocial jerks too.

I suppose antagonism at the gaming table basically comes from the thought Your behavior is thwarting my enjoyment of this game. In an RPG, players want to get immersed in a story that develops in a good-for-them way; so they get miffed when other players spoil "their" story. In a competitive board game, players just want a satisfying challenge; so they're likely to be disappointed only by a pushover or cheat or disinterested opponent.

In a cooperative game? Well, players are supposed to be working together to defeat their automated common enemy. So, antagonism could arise from feelings that some players aren't pulling their weight or are even being counterproductive. That might lead a strong, smart player to tend to dominate the others--and the others will likely react to that in various ways. Some might appreciate the help and leadership, while others will resent it.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:55 pm
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Patrick Carroll
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Of course, the worst antisocial behavior I've ever experienced has been in solitaire games.

Me: "Why did you make that bonehead play? If you'd been paying attention, you'd have seen that the AI was programmed to thwart it."

Me: "Yeah, I know. I'm stupid. I make the same dumb mistakes over and over again."

Me: "Can't you just, for once, take time to think a move or two ahead?"

Me: "I wish I could. I've just got some kind of mental block against it. I keep hoping my intuition will kick in and magically find me a good move."

Me: "Your intuition sure has a lousy track record, doesn't it? Are you sure that's what you want to pin your hopes on?"

Me: "Oh, leave off! It's just a game, and it's going to feel too much like work if I have to strain my brain and study every move I make."

Me: "'Too much like work,' huh? And I suppose we're having loads of fun right now? Blundering and losing yet again is fun for you, is it?"

Me: blush angry shake soblue
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  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:15 pm
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Russ Williams
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Thought-provoking article!

---

Patrick Carroll wrote:
Of course, serious chess players are known to sometimes be antisocial jerks too.

This came to my mind as well. I used to be very active in the go community (going to lots of go club meetings and tournaments and congresses) and found most go players to be very friendly. It was said this was due to the handicap system of go which is normally used in games with players of unequal strength, so that they each have a roughly equal chance to win: by definition you know you are going to lose half your go games, so there's no point getting ego-invested in winning as many games as possible.

Meanwhile I talked with many go players who were also serious chess players, and also talked with some serious chess players who didn't play go, and they often said that a lot of serious chess players are antisocial jerks (with personal anecdotes to tell about experiencing such behavior). It seems the lack of any handicapping tradition, so that a stronger player will almost always crush a weaker player, probably ties into this: a chess player can (and presumably does) aim to win as many games as possible. And there's a huge emphasis on ratings, unlike with many games. (Go has a big emphasis on ratings too, but the handicapping tradition seems to nullify or at least reduce the negative impact of the ratings.)

Maybe in recent decades the fact that a lot of serious chess playing seemed to occur in the hostile US-vs-USSR cold war competition also played a role?

If anyone reading this is active in serious go and serious chess and can directly talk about similarities and differences in the go and chess cultures, I'd love to hear their thoughts about this.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:17 pm
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Lowell Kempf
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I will admit that my premise of overt versus covert competition is an overly broad and simplistic one. It certainly isn't a catch-all or an explanation for every behavior you see out there.

However, I do think that when you get a group of people together, they try to figure out what the pecking order is. With a role playing gaming, that can sometimes involve some unpleasant, anti-social behavior.

With board games, on the other hand, the game itself is how you figure out what the pecking order is
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  • Posted Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:24 pm
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I am a long time DnD player (still active).

I do recognize your description of covert competition. But only from my younger days. Recently, I have found my roleplaying sessions to be entirely cooperative affairs (depending on the premise of the campaign/scenario of course). We used to try and grab as much powerful loot for our own characters as possible and would let the dice decide whenever there was a conflict of interest. Now, a magical item goes to whoever gets the biggest marginal benefit from it, money goes into a group fund, etc. Pure socialism laugh

Anyway, my point is that what you are seeing may also be the effects of you and the people you game with being more mature now.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:24 pm
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I think part if is also the nature of people each kind of gaming attracts. In my experience, board-gamers are a much more mature and good-natured group than, say, Magic players, which I played for many years.

Of course, education and situation don't necessarily dictate behavior. But my game group for instance is almost entirely college-educated, professional people. Most of which are married or engaged, many with kids, etc. Not that a guy with a wife and kid can't be an asshole, but I think in general people that are in stable situations in life are likely to be well-behaved civil people at the game table.

None of this is meant to insult people without college education, or single people, etc., I am only talking in broad strokes here.

I also feel like there maybe a perception that people play boardgames to be social, whereas they play RPGs to escape reality. I don't think either case is 100% accurate by any stretch, but maybe is true more often than not?
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:58 pm
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3dicebombers wrote:
I also feel like there maybe a perception that people play boardgames to be social, whereas they play RPGs to escape reality. I don't think either case is 100% accurate by any stretch, but maybe is true more often than not?

Sounds like a topic for another great blog post! How 'bout it, Lowell?

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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:27 pm
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Lowell Kempf
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
3dicebombers wrote:
I also feel like there maybe a perception that people play boardgames to be social, whereas they play RPGs to escape reality. I don't think either case is 100% accurate by any stretch, but maybe is true more often than not?

Sounds like a topic for another great blog post! How 'bout it, Lowell?



As ever, the comments are more interesting than my actual blogs

Hmmmm... That would be an interesting topic.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:53 pm
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I've often thought about these same issues. In D&D, you are generally more wedded to the group (I realize that this is not so much the case at conventions), so even small dramas get old fast. In boardgames, you come and go as you please. When I started playing boardgames seriously, there was one guy in particular that I didn't like. He was abrasive, and just gross. But at the end of the day, I didn't mind too much playing with him. I would not have wanted to be in an RPG group with him. I think that you may have hit on something with the competitive play insight. You can play boardgames with those who you don't like socially b/c you can take your aggressions out on them directly. This would not work in an RPG. I love that boardgames are a discrete time commitment. If I don't like a player or a group, I'm only tied up for a few hours (or a lot more in Civ).

R
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  • Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:40 am
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Based on my few co-op games with strangers, I haven't seen anything to back up the premise. I think there is something different between RPG's and board games other than cooperation vs. competition.

With an RPG, it's normal to play in a campaign with a static group of people. That allows you to develop rapport with each other, which seems important. In a convention setting, you lack that.

Boardgames are generally easier to play "anonymously", so whether you are playing with friends or strangers is less important.

I am inclined to agree with the idea that board game gatherings might tend to attract more "emotionally mature" people. But I don't have enough experience with RPGs to really say. I do know that almost everyone I have met in a boardgaming context has been very friendly and helpful.
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  • Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:40 am
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Patrick Carroll
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A new word I learned not long ago might be useful in this context: asocial.

Unfortunately, I didn't learn very much about the word. Apparently it's sometimes used as a synonym for "antisocial." But it can also be used to mean reticent, solitary, aloof--i.e., tending to avoid social contact and spend time alone.

"Antisocial" can mean that too, but more often (I think) it means being an ass--behaving in a way that irritates or antagonizes most others around. Kinda the opposite of being polite, but maybe it's worse than just being impolite.

Anyhow, when it comes to games, there are a lot of people who regard the game as just a centerpiece around which to socialize. These sociable gamers mingle easily and usually seem to be up on what kind of behavior is cool and what kind isn't. They also look askance at asocial and antisocial gamers; they wonder what makes those oddballs tick.

Me, I'm kind of asocial--meaning that I tend to spend most of my time alone, even when playing games, but I like people and behave politely when I'm around people, and I usually get along well with people.

If I ever encountered an antisocial gamer, it escapes my memory. By the time people gather for a game--any kind of game--they've pretty much agreed to do something fun and structured together. So, everybody follows the rules as best they can. There are personality differences, but I don't know that I've ever run into anything outright antisocial.

OTOH, I've encounterd a lot of asocial behavior among gamers. I'm not the only one who's introverted, reserved, shy, aloof, self-contained, or whatever you want to call it. Many people seem to get into games in the first place because they're good ice-breakers: if you're all just sitting around staring at each other, a game can get some interaction going in a way that everyone can be comfortable with.

Then there are games that one can get imaginatively immersed in--thematic games. One dimension of those games is just like a storybook or movie, either of which can easily be enjoyed by oneself. Hence, these games lend themselves to solitaire play, even if the competitive aspect is missing then.

And there are video games and designed-for-solitaire board and card games, which obviously attract the asocial gamer.

I guess what I want to say is that anytime we talk about antisocial behavior in gaming, we'd do well to distinguish it from asocial behavior.
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  • Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:55 pm
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The social contract of board games is different. We are here to pound each other to the ground. It’s not hidden behind passive aggressive denial. Nope, there’s only going to be one winner and you are going to your best to make sure that you are that winner.

You would think that would lead to nastier behavior. And, on the board, it does, sure. However, I have found that people tend to be a lot nicer and more cordial while they are just to cave your skull in on the board.

Very true. I've made this point in threads about not wanting to be mean in games with those you love. My girlfriend and I have no qualms being utterly vicious towards each other when playing together. Its our real affection that grants us this privilege for fake cruelty. In fact, I'm more prone to reign in the ferocity a bit when playing with a complete stranger.
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  • Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:24 pm
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garygarison wrote:
Quote:
The social contract of board games is different. We are here to pound each other to the ground. It’s not hidden behind passive aggressive denial. Nope, there’s only going to be one winner and you are going to your best to make sure that you are that winner.

You would think that would lead to nastier behavior. And, on the board, it does, sure. However, I have found that people tend to be a lot nicer and more cordial while they are just to cave your skull in on the board.

Very true. I've made this point in threads about not wanting to be mean in games with those you love. My girlfriend and I have no qualms being utterly vicious towards each other when playing together. Its our real affection that grants us this privilege for fake cruelty. In fact, I'm more prone to reign in the ferocity a bit when playing with a complete stranger.

It is interesting that some people are willing to be vicious in games with people close to them, but less so with strangers. Other people are ok being vicious with strangers, but not as much with people who are close.

My own social contract of board games is entirely different that what it stated above. I am there to do my best, and to help everyone at the table have fun. Many times that has absolutely nothing to do with being nasty to each other. Cooperative games being one obvious example, and so-called multi-player solitaire games being another.

I will play aggressive games, but I never really enjoy them. And I don't expect that to change in the future, either.
 
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  • Posted Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:07 am
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peakhope wrote:
My own social contract of board games is entirely different that what it stated above. I am there to do my best, and to help everyone at the table have fun. Many times that has absolutely nothing to do with being nasty to each other. Cooperative games being one obvious example, and so-called multi-player solitaire games being another.

I took it for granted that Gary was talking about competitive games, not cooperative games.

As for multi-player solitaire games, it's not possible to be vicious OR cooperative in them since by definition there is no interaction between players.

Less clearly, I assume Gary was talking about "viciousness" merely as a tool, used when appropriate, for "doing my best" i.e. trying to win. I see no use in viciousness for the sake of viciousness when it hurts my own position.

To me the obvious ideal is to make the best move I can, regardless of whether it is a "vicious" or "nice" move.

The whole concept of "vicious" and "nice" is then viewable as a purely subjective projection, just like "funny" moves or "clever" or "interesting" moves; in this light, there are no "vicious" or "nice" moves in the game theoretical sense of "doing my best" strategically; there are only "strong" and "weak" moves, which might be interpreted diversely by different observers as "vicious" or "funny" or "clever" or or "interesting" whatever, as subjective judgments...
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  • Posted Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:11 am
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Patrick Carroll
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russ wrote:
The whole concept of "vicious" and "nice" is then viewable as a purely subjective projection, just like "funny" moves or "clever" or "interesting" moves; in this light, there are no "vicious" or "nice" moves in the game theoretical sense of "doing my best" strategically; there are only "strong" and "weak" moves, which might be interpreted diversely by different observers as "vicious" or "funny" or "clever" or or "interesting" whatever, as subjective judgments...

And yet I've heard many times that human beings are primarily emotional creatures, certainly not logical ones. Hence, those "subjective judgments" are likely to be the main experience for most players, accounting for the biggest part of whatever impression they have of a particular game.

It doesn't do any good to tell Dr. McCoy to calm down and be more like Mr. Spock. He'll just say, "I'm a human being, not a damned Vulcan!"

Of course, there are people like my wife--so rational and adaptable that they don't get spontaneous emotional responses in people and tend to think of them all as inappropriate. And people like me, who try (usually in vain) to repress emotions so as to think things through and get things right. But besides us anomalies, the world is full of people who live and breathe "subjective judgments" and possibly couldn't care less about "doing my best."
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  • Edited Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:25 pm
  • Posted Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:24 pm
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Robrob wrote:
A bad group can ruin a good game and a good group can save a bad game.


That seems to be very much the case. There definently a social dimension to most gaming, so it makes sense that it's a factor in your enjoyment of different games.
 
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  • Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:23 pm
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3dicebombers wrote:
I also feel like there maybe a perception that people play boardgames to be social, whereas they play RPGs to escape reality. I don't think either case is 100% accurate by any stretch, but maybe is true more often than not?


Excellent point!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:06 pm
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