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The End of a Gaming Group?

Rishi A.
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So I am currently running a short campaign of Mutants & Masterminds (3rd Edition). Last night's session was not fun, and I was discussing possible improvements with the players. Much to my surprise, except for one player, none of them were having fun with the campaign. Now, there were a lot of individual opinions factoring in here, but I think I need to break down exactly what went wrong. It's really a huge combination of factors.

I am going to be somewhat careful about what I say here in case some of my players are reading. It is one of the reasons that I'm not going to provide many specific examples.

Lack of Backstory

Although there are a couple of well-conceived characters, most of them lacked an interesting and complicated backstory. Part of the problem is that we're coming off the heels of a very plot-driven Dungeons & Dragons (4th Edition) campaign, where less emphasis was placed on character development. I think that some players have gotten lazy about it and others just aren't interested in developing their characters in terms of personality and backstory. In addition, I blame things on a rather poor decision on my part: to allow players to rotate in between multiple characters. My intent was to give room for guest stars and for people to explore myriad superhero tropes, but the effect was that people didn't think their characters through. Finally, there was a distinct lack of setting. I was hoping to set things in the default M&M 3E setting (Emerald City), but the sourcebook got pushed back to next year. I decided to place things in the real world, but I wasn't able to give the players enough of a sense on how the world has been changed by the appearance of super heroes.

The System Itself

Now I don't mean to criticize the system, but only suggesting that perhaps the system isn't right for us. Part of our problem is definitely the unfamiliarity with the system. Combats took a long time at first because we were constantly looking up rules.

But I think there are larger problems that I am having with the system. First of all, there are not a lot of tactical options. Sure, you can subtract points from your attack to add some damage and vice versa, but a lot of the maneuvers don't necessarily add any depth to the game: just complexity. The system is not robust enough to be an interesting tactical exercise in its own right. A good superhero combat needs to have a healthy sprinkle of quips and plot hooks which are difficult to insert when the players aren't interested and I'm too busy looking up rules to add a lot of flavor. But it's not rules-light enough to de-emphasize the dice rolling and make it all about narrative. M&M 3E falls in this weird hybrid area where the clunky roots from Dungeons & Dragons (3rd Edition) are showing but the system hasn't been streamlined enough to just be quick-and-dirty dice-rolling.

Secondly, combat is very swingy. For those who do not know the system, an attacker makes a roll see if the attack hits or not. If it does, the defender rolls a check to see how much damage it does (called a "toughness check"). In that toughness check, anything could happen to the defender, from completely shrugging off the damage to instantly dropping unconscious. After a few rounds, players often have figured out their most effective course of action and there's no reason for them to not repeat it every round.

Blame In the Right Place

And I realize that it's easy to blame the players and the system, but part of it is my fault. I really could have spent more time creating a world or giving the players interesting hooks. Our sessions take place on weekday evenings, and I'm often too tired and too busy from work to prepare things to the level that I need to. Also, as I mentioned above, I made poor decisions in allowing people to switch out characters and not having a well-defined setting.

What's Next?

So, this is the crux of the post. Some of the players want something rules-light and narrative-driven while others want something with a little more tactical crunch (i.e. back to D&D). It's hard to say with this group, though, because I think everyone is pulling in different directions. The only other things besides D&D and some board games that I've played with these guys is one session of Fiasco with two of the players: one of them really liked it and one really didn't. And Spirit of the Century, which various people disliked for various reasons: a couple didn't like the setting, a couple thought it was too rules-light and one person said that he thought it had too many rules (???) - and this coming from someone who plays D&D.

So I'm at a crossroads where I can't please everyone. It's a stereotype that D&D players don't transition well into other RPGs, but in this case, it's turning out to be true. No matter what direction I go in, someone is going to be unhappy. I guess the important thing is that the unhappy person is not me.

I can't force people to insert "acting" (for lack of a better term) into their play. Also, it's difficult to just scrap the group as I've known everyone in it for at least two years.

Something drastically needs to change though. When your leisure hobbies are becoming stressful, you're doing something wrong.
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Subscribe sub options Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:04 pm
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Andrew Goenner
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Rishi! My friend!
I know exactly what you mean. I run our group on weeknights as well (Mondays). I've had similar problems with games where they just didn't "click" for a multitude of reasons.

My recommendation to you is what I did. Pick some games you think there's potential they may enjoy and say "We're going to do oneshots in each of these games. Pay attention as they're being run because when we're done you guys are choosing which one we do a campaign in."

The stipulations for me were:

1. It had to be something I was familiar with or a system I was interested in.

2. It had to be a game I could see myself potentially RUNNING a campaign in. I made that mistake when I ran Deadlands. It was fun and players loved it, but it's just not my genre when it comes to creating awesome campaign ideas.

The main reason for those points is there will probably be something in the list of games your players will agree on was fun. But YOU have to enjoy running it as well, or it won't matter.

Another thing I do is pass the torch for a bit when I'm getting stressed like you are. Let someone run something, or talk someone into it, just to give you a break in such a way that the group won't lose its roleplaying momentum.

Anyway, good luck and let us know how it turns out!
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:24 pm
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Marshall Miller
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I know they say not to but maybe its time to split the party. It doesn't mean that there shouldn't be crossover but maybe if you had two different games running, people could either play in the one that interested them or play a big part in one (like GMing) and a smaller part in the other.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:31 pm
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Matt Downey
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I've experienced some things like this with gaming groups before. I'll address those in a minute, but first a few comments on making the system more tactical.

There are a couple other maneuvers it doesn't sound like anyone's using that are more than just "raise damage and lower attack" type things. Using Bluff to feint (and taking a -5 to do it as a move action) comes to mind.

Also, if you need more tactical options, make the combat more interesting. What if there are bystanders in the way? If that building gets hit by a stray blast, will the rubble fall on them?

Maybe you can throw in other environmental factors, like fighting voer a volcano or in a fun house. Maybe the heroes are trying to stop a bank robbery, but one or more of them are already in the bank in their civilian identities. How will they get in to the action without revealing their identity? Or what if one of the bystanders is someone they care up?

However, all of this is moot if the players aren't into their characters. One of the things M&M does really well is getting people to have backstories. The complication mechanism is a great way to reward them for backstories as well as bring them into play and get them more involved.

As for the group itself? I'm a big believer in having a group that mostly share the same things they want out of a game. You can't please everyone, so finding something that balances it is hard.

I had a group I played with for over three years. Eventually, no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get them to care about the story or their characters, or provide any more depth than "I want to be a ranger!" They're all my really good friends, but we just decided to stop playing together. Rather, myself and the other person who typically GMed decided to just stop GMing. We offered to set up a monthly board game night, happeniing at someone else's place each month. We hosted the first two months, and predicatably, no one stepped up to host the rest and it died. We still sometimes will have board game nights if I bother to set one up, but they are just not organizers.

Obviously this isn't what you specifically want to hear, because no one wants to break up the group. So some suggestions I have, based on things we TRIED to do.

Andrew's suggestion of the series of one shots is a good one, first off. We definitely did that for a little while, with some minor success.

We also tried a campaign where we all played the same characters, but switched up the GM every month, with each GM building on the previous GM's work. It was fun and led to some interesting scenarios, but it became a probelm when people half-assed the GMing, as was expected. We hoped they would appreciate the difficulty of GMing some more, but it didn't quite work (with oen ntoable, happy exception).

We tried doing a game where everyone applied a total of 100 points to five different areas and focusing the game on those areas, proportionally. Hilariously, when virtually everyone spent 30% or more on one section, they complained that we spent any amount of time at all on that very subject, when it was the most popular. You just can't please some people.

We tried extensive use of Obsidian Portal, believing if they spent time building up the world and adding things, they would get more into it. They never spent any time adding things to the wiki, or even reading it.

We also took a break for a while, recharging things. That worked for a time, but it always came back to the same problem: they didn't put any effort into their characters and they didn't appreciate all the effort we put into GMing.

So in conclusion, I guess what I have to say is try to switch things up and keep it flavorful. But if you have two people, one who really like Fiasco and one who hated it, then you may just have too diverse a group to run a game where everyone enjoys it.
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  • Edited Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:52 pm
  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:51 pm
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Hans Messersmith
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As an aside, I think M&M has gone the way of many games as new editions have come out in that the designers have, for some reason, decided that what was needed was more, not less, complexity in the rules. Mutants & Masterminds (1st Edition) was actually pretty straightforward in implementation once characters were created, but Mutants & Masterminds (3rd Edition) (or at least the DC Adventures implementation I have seen of it) seems to have gone too far the other way. If you are going to have that much complexity, might as well play Champions!

Directly to your issue, though, Rishi, I think Andrew's idea is a good one, but in the end I suspect Marshall might be right. There are so many different ways that people role-play, and sometimes one person's fun is inversely proportional to another persons fun. When that happens, there really is no way to make both of them happy.

BTW, if people like rotating between characters, consider Ars Magica (5th Edition) and In a Wicked Age. Those two games come at the concept of multiple characters per player from VERY different directions.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:54 pm
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Andrew Sinclair
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I sympathise with your troubles, Rishi. I don't have any experience directly with Mutants & Masterminds, but I have a couple of ideas that might help... you could try a combination of delegate and reward.

By delegate I mean find a player or two who are familiar with the rules and get them to become the rules gurus for your game. Maybe they can prepare cheat sheets for each character, focusing on that character's special powers. Also the guru can be a go-to source during game play to help cut down on time. By giving this responsibility to someone else it frees you to focus on other things while a rule is being looked up. As an added advantage, the guru or gurus will become more attached to the game, as they now have some personal stake invested in it. They will be more committed to the game, and will help to encourage others to participate and enjoy.

By reward I simply mean reward the behaviour you want to see more of in your gaming group. If you like rich role playing and detailed backgrounds then give out rewards for those who make the effort. The most obvious type of reward can be something with real in-game value, like extra experience points. It can be something much simpler, though... even as simple as giving out favourite snacks or letting a player wear 'The Lucky Hat' for that gaming session.

Good luck with everything. I hope it all works out.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:58 pm
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Andrew Goenner
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I agree with Ars Magica for rotating characters. That whole system is pretty much designed around having multiple characters per person to switch between.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:03 pm
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Rishi A.
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Thanks for the thoughts, all. Even though none of the original players are left, this "group" has been meeting weekly for over four years (and we've only had one new player in the past year and a half), so it seems like the solution is to let go, but it's still kind of tough.

There's another wrinkle. I'm moving in February - definitely not more than 10 miles away, but if I no longer live within walking distance of easy public transportation, it will prevent some people from attending. I was hoping the M&M campaign would fill the gap until then. After moving, I would figure out who was still going to play and find a game that worked.

I don't know if delegating rules expertise would work. The reward system is a good one - but I've tried it before with that group and it often ended with certain players getting half a dozen rewards per session and the ones who didn't get any rewards didn't care.

I guess the main thing is whether or not I try to save the M&M campaign. People have given me some good specific suggestions for injecting life into the game, but if they don't pick up on the cues, then what can I do?

There is the possibility of doing a collaborative character creation session, which would not only force them to come up with backstories, but create connections between characters. The problem is that there is one player who absolutely LOVES his character (and it's a really great character which he role-plays well). He's also the one player who is really pushing to stick with M&M. (Though, strangely enough, it's the same person who really disliked Fiasco.) I think the character creation session somewhat doubles as a team-building exercise (important in an RPG group), so I don't know how he'd react to that suggestion.

The other possibility is just doing one-shots until I move. I think they would have to be rules-light by definition, since I don't want to learn a bunch of new systems in the next few weeks.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:33 pm
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Rishi A.
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Oh, I should also point out that the idea of rotating characters was a bad one, I think. It was an experiment. I have already decided to abandon that idea. But I will definitely look into Ars Magica if I change my mind some time down the line.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:35 pm
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Andrew Goenner
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Rishi wrote:

The other possibility is just doing one-shots until I move. I think they would have to be rules-light by definition, since I don't want to learn a bunch of new systems in the next few weeks.


Yeah, that's the downside of the "run one-shots" idea. I'd kept mine to systems I'd known but hadn't played for a while and systems I REALLY wanted to learn.

If you're looking for a fun, rules-light oneshot I could recommend a couple systems, but then the problem is if you'd be able to come by them anyway. The one that leaps immediately to mind is Ghostbusters, but it's hard to come by a copy of that for cheap.

Hmmmm...I should look at your collection, speaking of. I just realized I've never peeked at it.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:41 pm
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Rishi A.
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MasterGeek wrote:
Hmmmm...I should look at your collection, speaking of. I just realized I've never peeked at it.


My collection is pretty haphazard as I haven't sat down to enter everything I own. Mostly, I run across something and say, "Oh yeah, I own that" and then tag it as owned.

I'm significantly more obsessive about tagging my board games.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:46 pm
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Andrew Goenner
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Rishi wrote:
MasterGeek wrote:
Hmmmm...I should look at your collection, speaking of. I just realized I've never peeked at it.


My collection is pretty haphazard as I haven't sat down to enter everything I own. Mostly, I run across something and say, "Oh yeah, I own that" and then tag it as owned.

I'm significantly more obsessive about tagging my board games.


I'm the opposite. My board games are pretty haphazard, but my RPG collection is generally kept fairly up-to-date.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:52 pm
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Justin Fitzgerald
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I'd say I agree with this statement:
The system is not robust enough to be an interesting tactical exercise in its own right.

I'm reminded of D&D 4th edition's skill challenges. Though there are a large number of PC races and classes, ultimately there is no difference of significance between any of them.

M&M seems similar. For example, an elognation hero using a close attack will cost almost exactly the same as a ranged attacker. There might be minor advantages to either approach because of synergy with other choices made.

I get the same feeling where it all seems very, very generic.

A few places I saw this getting mixed up:
- Combat maneuvers, like all-out attack. The heroes should be put in situations where they have to really consider whether they should be doing a particular maneuver or not.
- The fact you can basically say "no" as a GM by having their actions thwarted and awarding a hero point. For example, I have a mind control character in my campaign and he got a lucky one-shot control on a dangerous supervillain. However, that really couldn't fly and was thematically incorrect (the guy is biologically criminally insane). So - hero point it is, player learns this is not an action to do on them, it's all good.
- Descriptors. For example, if your fire hero meets a water villain, their descriptors could be thought to conflict.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:10 pm
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Rishi A.
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Feedback from my players has been trickling in throughout the day in response to an e-mail I sent them. Most of the e-mails are, "Well, we can give M&M another shot if you want or try something new. I'm okay with either option."

On one hand, it's good to know that they're giving me leeway on the decision, but this may be one instance where a diplomatic answer is definitely not helpful.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:28 pm
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If they do want to keep playing, if there are games that you've all played together, just email them a list and say "Look, these are your choices. Which of these do you want to play?" And then go with what gets the most votes.

Or, if you want to try and balance, have each player list in order what they'd like to play (high number to low number, ie high number is higher priority), then add the numbers for each game and pick the one with the highest total.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:39 pm
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Rishi A.
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MasterGeek wrote:
If they do want to keep playing, if there are games that you've all played together, just email them a list and say "Look, these are your choices. Which of these do you want to play?" And then go with what gets the most votes.

Or, if you want to try and balance, have each player list in order what they'd like to play (high number to low number, ie high number is higher priority), then add the numbers for each game and pick the one with the highest total.


Well, as I've said, we haven't played a lot of different things together. I do like the idea of soliciting suggestions from them for one-shots.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:51 pm
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Oh, I got that. I just thought maybe there may have been enough experience in the group itself that they might have ideas of what they'd like to play.

If they haven't played many systems either, though, that does make it a bit more difficult.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:59 pm
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Rishi A.
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Really varying levels of experience in the group...

Oh, we also played Gamma World once. They all liked it but I absolutely hated it.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:06 pm
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Side question about Gamma World. I've never played it. Do you hate the system, or GMing it? I ask because to me it seems like a game I would kind of enjoy being a PC in, but would probably loathe running myself.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:14 pm
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MasterGeek wrote:
Side question about Gamma World. I've never played it. Do you hate the system, or GMing it? I ask because to me it seems like a game I would kind of enjoy being a PC in, but would probably loathe running myself.


I wasn't the GM when we played!

I don't like it because it seemed too random and fiddly. Every time you rolled a 1, your powers would suddenly change...

I actually got the hang of it eventually, but a couple of the other players didn't, and we got into situations where players were taking five minutes (or longer) to declare their actions.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:22 pm
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Now two people have officially told me they don't like superheroes at all. So I'm not sure how we got everyone to agree to play it in the first place.

And thus, we all learn a valuable lesson about not making your preferences known.

We're definitely doing a one-shot next week. It sounds like everyone wants to scrap M&M.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:34 pm
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Sorry to hear that, Rishi. Let us know what you decide to play and how it goes. I'm sure it'll work itself out.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:43 pm
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Would Dungeon World Basic Roleplaying Game scratch the itch? Not sure how difficult it would be to learn, but it looks to combine some tactical play, the fantasy setting, but get away from being a D&D clone.

I also think Mouse Guard may be a good match. I like the fact that it has a lot of structure while breaking a lot of molds. The conflict system allows for some tactical thinking for those players.

You may also want to give Gamma World another shot with a few house rules. If you only draw new mutation cards upon gaining new levels (and have the powers reset after each encounter), you'll get a bit more consistent characters. Likewise the setting doesn't need to be as gonzo as the rules suggest. As a rules set it is a nice simplification of the general 4E approach.

If you have access to it, I also suggest you consider Star Wars Saga.

Not all of these fit the "one shot" mold. But they sound like they may fit other group criteria.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 2:28 am
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Rishi A.
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Well, we're all on the same page as far as not wanting to do fantasy setting at the moment. I am curious about Dungeon World but not right now.

Hmm. I kind of like the idea of Gamma World with house rules. I don't even mind the silliness of the setting. I think the big turn-off for me was actually the cards and how you needed to buy packs to get new powers and "build a deck of powers." I don't begrudge Wizards (like some people) for wanting to make money and I like both CCGs and RPGs, but this is one instance where I didn't want chocolate in my peanut butter. How easy would it be to adapt the game for use without minis? I'm not strictly opposed to them, but want a slightly less tactical experience.

I totally had forgotten about Star Wars Saga Edition. I got the book when it came out a few years back and have it lying around somewhere. I'm a little reluctant to run Star Wars since I know very little about the setting. I've seen the movies and like them, but my knowledge of the expanded universe is non-existent. But it is an option.

We're playing Lady Blackbird next week. I want to see how things will go in a rules-light game... because that's what I really want to run for a little bit: rules-light systems.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 4:01 pm
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Brian Leet
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Rishi wrote:
Hmm. I kind of like the idea of Gamma World with house rules. I don't even mind the silliness of the setting. I think the big turn-off for me was actually the cards and how you needed to buy packs to get new powers and "build a deck of powers." I don't begrudge Wizards (like some people) for wanting to make money and I like both CCGs and RPGs, but this is one instance where I didn't want chocolate in my peanut butter. How easy would it be to adapt the game for use without minis? I'm not strictly opposed to them, but want a slightly less tactical experience.


It could be done without minis I suppose, but not sure it is worth it. I think it would work fine just using the cards that came in the box with house rules that vastly reduce how often players get new mutations. Of course, you don't need to use cards for items (although I think they are handy).

Rishi wrote:
I totally had forgotten about Star Wars Saga Edition. I got the book when it came out a few years back and have it lying around somewhere. I'm a little reluctant to run Star Wars since I know very little about the setting. I've seen the movies and like them, but my knowledge of the expanded universe is non-existent. But it is an option.


I know very little about the extended setting, and have only been a player, so can't help you here. It really depends on whether your players are willing to accept "Only the movies happened" or will get hung up on trying to use their own OOC knowledge in the game. There is certainly nothing about the system itself that necessitates expanded universe knowledge.

Rishi wrote:
We're playing Lady Blackbird next week. I want to see how things will go in a rules-light game... because that's what I really want to run for a little bit: rules-light systems.


Let us know how it goes!
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  • Edited Fri Nov 4, 2011 5:54 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 5:54 pm
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F H
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Why dont you try 3:16 Carnage Amongst the Stars. Its rules light, does not take a lot of prep and is combat focused while not being rules heavy.

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  • Edited Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:57 pm
  • Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:57 pm
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